Excessive Weather Helm Even on Reach

[stevensuf]

OK so recently Ive noticed ive been getting a hell of a lot of weather helm, even with a reefed main and reaching not pointing, im wondering if my genoa is starting to get baggy and starting to loose power or some strange rudder growth?

now if it was a baggy genoa it should be more pronounced in pointing and less an issue in reaching, but its strong on a reach,

Now what would cause a boat to develop string weather helm or have i been in the caribbean too long and forgetting how to trim my sails?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

OK so recently Ive noticed ive been getting a hell of a lot of weather helm, even with a reefed main and reaching not pointing, im wondering if my genoa is starting to get baggy and starting to loose power or some strange rudder growth?

now if it was a baggy genoa it should be more pronounced in pointing and less an issue in reaching, but its strong on a reach,

Now what would cause a boat to develop string weather helm or have i been in the caribbean too long and forgetting how to trim my sails?

Did you reef the main but not go to a smaller headsail?

[Bash]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

OK so recently Ive noticed ive been getting a hell of a lot of weather helm, even with a reefed main and reaching not pointing, im wondering if my genoa is starting to get baggy and starting to loose power or some strange rudder growth?

One way to read the above sentence is that you're running a genoa when reefed. Is this the case? How big a genoa are you running?

Lee helm is caused when the center of pressure is too far forward. A reefed main combined with a full genoa can cause that.

[stevensuf]

full genoa , first reef in main, still getting weather helm, not lee helm, dunno why!

[44'cruisingcat]

Overtrimmed mainsail?

[s/v Jedi]

Most weather helm is caused by an asymmetric hull shape for the submerged part of the hull. For otherwise straight hulls, this is caused by heel.

Try to confirm that weather helm is indeed linear with heel. Then minimize heel. Baggy sails cause drag and thus excessive heel and thus weather helm.

Set the auto-pilot, note the average rudder position, then start the engine, put in slow forward and completely furl the genoa. The engine will compensate so you don't stall. Check the rudder position now. The rudder position is a very good indicator of trim. However, a center position normally does not give optimum performance so you need to find the best position by experimenting with trim, checking VMG on the instruments. At optimum trim, note rudder position and remember that as an easy check on trim.

[stevensuf]

I sat on a reach the other day and let the reefed main out so far that the sail was curving in the spreaders, couldnt let it out any further and was still getting heavy weather helm, on a reach this is, full properly trimmed genny and 1st reefed main, granted the swell was aft on the windward quarter, so it would contribute to the boat turning in the swell towards the wind.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Bash

One way to read the above sentence is that you're running a genoa when reefed. Is this the case? How big a genoa are you running?

Lee helm is caused when the center of pressure is too far forward. A reefed main combined with a full genoa can cause that.

Exactly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bash

One way to read the above sentence is that you're running a genoa when reefed. Is this the case? How big a genoa are you running?

Lee helm is caused when the center of pressure is too far forward. A reefed main combined with a full genoa can cause that.

He says weather helm, not lee helm.

Steve, are you sure you don't have on too much main sheet? I made this stupid mistake once while reaching and was stumped for almost an entire day by weather helm I couldn't trim out.

I've also found that when the wind gets up, too deep a shape in either sail can cause excessive helm. I understand why this is the case with the main, but with the jib? So get your sails nice and flat. If they bare getting blown out, then that could definitely be your problem.

Sorry to keep asking obvious questions, but is your heel angle under control? If not, keep reefing.

Good luck.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Exactly.

Except that the OP was describing excessive WEATHER helm....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

I sat on a reach the other day and let the reefed main out so far that the sail was curving in the spreaders, couldnt let it out any further and was still getting heavy weather helm, on a reach this is, full properly trimmed genny and 1st reefed main, granted the swell was aft on the windward quarter, so it would contribute to the boat turning in the swell towards the wind.

"On a reach" covers a lot of angles though. Roughly what AWA are you talking about?

Have you altered any of your rig? Maybe moved your masthead aft?

Also, you mention rudder growth - have you actually checked that your rudder isn't a big blob of barnacles?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

I sat on a reach the other day and let the reefed main out so far that the sail was curving in the spreaders, couldnt let it out any further and was still getting heavy weather helm, on a reach this is, full properly trimmed genny and 1st reefed main, granted the swell was aft on the windward quarter, so it would contribute to the boat turning in the swell towards the wind.

Letting it out too far is also not good. You will stall it and it will just create drag, hence heel, hence helm. It should not be let out past where the lee telltales start to flop.

Did you try putting on some vang? Do you have loose-footed main? Did you play with the outhaul?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Except that the OP was describing excessive WEATHER helm....

You're right. We lept to the obvious instead of what he actually said.

[donradcliffe]

The obvious solution is to move the center of effort forward--if a double reef doesn't solve it, drop the main--if that doesn't solve it, roll up some genoa--you will go just as fast, be more comfortable, and your autopilot will love you.

[s/v Jedi]

No, the obvious solution is to reduce heel.