Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-09-2009, 12:14   #1
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Cheaper Old Boats: False Economy ?

At the moment I am trying to get a feel for the type of boat to buy and wonder if it is really worth saving on the initial purchase price by buying an older boat?

For example there are two Jeanneau models that seem fairly similar but from different "eras" that appeal to me at the moment, Sun Shine 38 (1985-89) and the Sun Odyssey 37 (2000+)

I have seen an 1989 SS for about $75 (VAT paid) and a 2000 SO for about $100k (no tax, so I will have to add VAT). As I have to pay %25 Swedish VAT I am looking at a $50k price difference.

I would certainly expect with the SS I would probably need to major refit of the rigging, deck hardware, new sails, perhaps a new engine and an electronics upgrade (assuming this has not been recently been done)

From reading here, I get the feeling that a 10 year old ex-charter boat (by the time i am ready to buy) will potentially need just as much of refit as the older boat. So for either boat I need to pretty much budget for the same amount of refitting/upgrading.

Am I on the right track to think that the cheaper boat will still work out substantially cheaper to get a boat equipped the way I want?
__________________

__________________
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 12:37   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
I suspect with the Jenneaus, you're better off going with the newer model.
__________________

__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 12:57   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 211
I believe you can sail into port in any European country and pay the VAT there. The boat would then be deemed to be VAT-paid in Europe as a whole - including your own country. Current UK VAT is 15%... Full list here: European VAT Rates
__________________
ColdFusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 13:27   #4
Registered User
 
Kefaa's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Boat: Island Packet 31 (35'), Black Squirrel
Posts: 239
Not necessarily...

I cannot speak to the particular model, however a sweeping generalization is that new boats have fewer issues. Not fantastic insight when you consider a new anything usually has fewer issues.

Having said that, my search for a boat (Does It Take Everyone This Long?) has shown me that it is more the owner than the year. For example, 5 years in the Florida weather with minimal maintenance or on the hard for three years and issues will abound. A well maintained boat is like a classic car, it shows well and it is kept well via a pride of ownership.

I am sure there are limits. For example, there is no rule on how long fiberglass stays viable. As one broker said to me “The coastguard says a well maintained fiberglass boat can last 1000 years.” Perhaps, but I cannot find where the coastguard ever said that and even if true, we still have about 940 years to go to prove it.


So what I have learned from the people here and my quest (search is too simple a word):
  • Given my price point, I need to go older.
  • Given the quality I desire (a boat that is viable at 40), I have to look at upper quality boats.
  • It is FAR more important that I see a sense of pride in the ownership than seeing new sails or a fresh bottom.
  • You need a very good surveyor to go over the boat once you decide to buy.

How I determine pride in ownership is the following. I am sure others may claim I am losing opportunities or not critical enough, but this works for me.
  1. When you step inside what do you smell? The head? Diesel? Something awful?
  2. Look at the bright work. Is it well cared for or rusting? Is it clean – even if not shiny?
  3. Is the standing rigging clean and without any type of rust or wires?
  4. Open every compartment, drawer and closet. No water marks anywhere.
  5. Open the engine compartment. Is it clean – not clean compared to a car engine – clean compared to your kitchen table.
  6. Lay on the floor and look at places that are rubbed. Under the nav table, or in front of the settee for example. Did they keep up with the varnish?
None of these will sink a boat, but they tell me how important the boat was to the last owner. The sails are a bad indicator. The last boat I was on, the sails were great, talking to the neighbor, she said the guy never sailed the boat. He came down on the weekends and hung out with friends.


It is not a false economy as long as you spend the time to find the right older boat.
__________________

Kefaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 13:48   #5
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Sneuman, is there build quality or design issues with the older Jeanneau's?

Keffa, sounds like good advice. Your "how long" thread is quite frightening.... Before I can get serious about looking I have to sell my current boat (Searay 220 Sunsport) and save a bit of money. Given that the boating season in Sweden is in it's death throws, I'm not expecting to sell it before next spring.
__________________
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 15:03   #6
Registered User
 
amarinesurveyor's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Jupiter, FL
Posts: 156
[QUOTE=Kefaa;331183]

When you step inside what do you smell? The head? Diesel? Something awful?
  1. Look at the bright work. Is it well cared for or rusting? Is it clean – even if not shiny?
  2. Is the standing rigging clean and without any type of rust or wires?
  3. Open every compartment, drawer and closet. No water marks anywhere.
  4. Open the engine compartment. Is it clean – not clean compared to a car engine – clean compared to your kitchen table.
Lay on the floor and look at places that are rubbed. Under the nav table, or in front of the settee for example. Did they keep up with the varnish?



All are very good points and I look for the same type things. I wanted to add; look in the bilges, all sections - under the engine, in the sump, forward and aft, that will also tell you alot, if they are nice and clean you usually have a pretty good boat. Another thing I look at is the fire extinguishers and flares - if they are recent and not 10 years old, the owner is on top of things usually.
Brian
__________________
amarinesurveyor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 15:52   #7
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Sometimes looking for signs is not the same as finding real problems or real deals. It comes down to the other boat that really was better because you saw it and learned about it. Real deals are far more important than ideal boats.

You can only buy what is offered for sale. Find five boats you might buy and compare them. What would it take to make them all equal (in price). If they all cost too much then you are shopping for a fantasy that won't happen. Wake up call time. You can learn too! I've been there too.

Buy the better boat when they all equalize by the numbers. You'll then know it was the best choice you had at the time. You will be sure a few years latter when you find the surprises the surveyor missed and they do miss a lot - even the good ones. If you wait another few years a better deal might come along. You have to be present to end up with a boat. How long you can stay in the game just lessens the time you could have had on a boat. That counts for money too. It's worse for sellers.
__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 09:28   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
I have just gone through this, and now after buying a 35 year old boat and almost finished restoring it I can say:
Better if you have lots of time.
Initial build quality and design are very important.
Plan on spending 50% more on the boat after you buy it.
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 09:44   #9
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 769
If you want new or like-new, I've found;

Buying new is most expensive
Buying used and restoring to like-new is next expensive
Buying used and already restored to like-new is least expensive

The benefit of the middle choice is if you can enjoy the boat during restoration. The initial purchase price is lower, but the end cost is higher (but spread over more years).

Used but in like-new is the most cost-effective. Many cruisers sit virtually unused, but well maintained for decades.
__________________
anotherT34C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 10:09   #10
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
I live in Sweden and plan to keep the boat in Greece or somewhere else warm in the Med, so I won't have time to do any restoration myself. I figure the most I will have time and skill to do would be to sand back and repaint the interior woodwork I'd have to pay someone to do most of the restoration it might need.

Maybe I should stick to the newer boats in the hope that there is less to do.

Out of interest, anyone know how expensive it is to replace the mast, spars and rigging for a cruising yacht in the high 30's in length? Are we talking 5,000 or 50,000?
__________________
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 10:11   #11
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,880
I truly believe …the boat finds you!

After breathing and sleeping over the many design, price and age options you have, there comes a point where, as Paul says, you no longer want to stay in the game and you commit to a lady…wrinkles and all.
__________________
Pelagic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 10:21   #12
Registered User
 
waterworldly's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York City/Bimini
Boat: 52' Irwin Ketch
Posts: 441
One year ago I purchased a 28 year old boat that had been well maintained but sitting unused. After the purchase, I had all systems gone over by professionals, and routine maintence done on the systems by techs from their respective companies. I have traveled over 2000 miles since then and have done the routine stuff myself and only had one problem that required a pro, the refrigeration, which was fixed once and has performed fine since. I would say it is better to buy a well maintained boat that is older but of original good quality than a new or newer production boat that is of lesser quality (old halberg-rassy vs. new/newer beneteau etc.). You will take particular comfort in the thick fiberglass that is not available in new boats anymore, as I can really take a hit and have seen new production boats have serious hull damage in light collisions with docks etc.
__________________
waterworldly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 12:10   #13
Senior Cruiser
 
nautical62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Iowa - Sail mostly Bahamas
Boat: Beneteau 32.5
Posts: 2,264
Images: 12
My first boat was a 28 year old pocket cruiser. After 8 years of ownership it proved to be much less expensive than purchasing a new boat. I was however, willing and able to most of the needed work on it myself.

I think being able to identify what is likely to need upgrading will help you out greatly. Upgrading wiring and an old circuit board for example isn't very expensive. If you have to repower and replace all the sails, it will set you back a bit.
__________________
nautical62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2009, 12:29   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
The decision on old or new is totally dependent on two things:

the degree and capability of the sweat equity you are willing to commit.

the way in which you intend to use your boat.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2009, 00:54   #15
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
I get the feeling that a 10 year old ex-charter boat (by the time i am ready to buy) will potentially need just as much of refit as the older boat.

Absolute twaddle.

Would you buy a year 2000 car? Maybe as a second hand car...

would you buy a 1985 car? NEVER!

Every year is 12 months in the most aggresivly crosive liquid available to a sailor... salt water.

Get the newer boat.
__________________

__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
boats in USA are cheaper than in EU? Karletto Dollars & Cents 13 11-03-2009 21:53
Truth or False? BlueWater1 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 26 03-02-2007 15:14
TV, internet cheaper for boats and better now myblueheaven Fishing, Recreation & Fun 6 06-10-2005 23:18
Internet, TV for boats now cheaper, better myblueheaven Marine Electronics 1 01-10-2005 22:10
are 2 boats cheaper than one ? capt lar General Sailing Forum 12 17-09-2005 10:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.