Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

[boatman61]

How does one define a Cruiser..
Day sailing.. then back to the house..
Weekend sailing.. and a couple of weeks a year pottering locally (within 100nm of home port) then back to the house..
Live aboard in a marina or regular anchorage who potters occasionally..
Live aboard summers and back to the house winters..
Snow Geese full time live aboard like Jim and Ann..
Live aboard who does the Atlantic circuit every year.. ie 2 transats/year.
Guess there will be varied opinions.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by DeValency

****
That's a nice theory but my experience tells me that cruisers usually spend the most they can afford (and sometimes way more than that) on buying the best boat they can for the budget. So what we see all around is that smaller cheaper boats' sailors stay on board while at least half of those bigger boats (say 45'+) will stay ashore at least for part of the time and almost all the mega yachts owners...

That's life... and it is the same rule anywhere on land as well.

You are probably right which is why I always try to explain to new buyers to buy a lower priced boat first to see if you like being on the boat

If I ever do start cruising for more than a week or two, I'll definitely be parking my $2,000 boat (which I have near $10,000 into now after 8 years) and getting a nice room for a few days to get rejuvenated and to enjoy land based activates.

When I arrived in Pensacola, FL in 1996, I thought I'd never want to leave this paradise, but after about 10 years (and about the same number of hurricanes) it did start get old.

I also got to see lots of cruisers hanging out on their boats. We'd see some at our prerace Skipper's meetings as they were anchored in Little Sabine Bay. They didn't seem to be doing much

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Li...!4d-87.1503931

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sometimes having a larger boat can actually be more frugal if it allows the owner to go places and put the boat to use in ways that a smaller size boat would not allow. If the boat was too small for instance, it might not get used at all by not serving the owner’s needs; the owner might in fact end up quitting. For example, back in our 20’s we enjoyed a 20ft O’Day for three years, but then along came a business and children and the boat no longer served our needs..... so it sat unused in our driveway for the next five years. Another example: Seven years ago my good friend purchased a used 22ft Santana sailboat in good condition for around $5000; since that day his boat has been used twice. Why? Because it doesn't suit his family's needs, his wife would like some comforts and his now teenage children don't wanna go sailing.

On the other hand, if your current boat serves your present needs... congratulations! But as far as this thread goes, as I understand the topic, it’s asking: Why is boat size increasing?

And I’m just offering up my opinions, which might differ from those of other participants based on my personal experience.

Originally Posted by thomm225

No way!

For example, if you have a sense of adventure you could sail your 27' -36' boat that you paid maybe $10K - $40K for to anyplace that you could sail your 50' plus boat which may cost $200K - $300K or more

After you reach your destination, you could put the boat in a slip and check into one of the nicest hotels in the area and hangout for a few weeks with the money you would have saved just by using your good old smaller boat

Thomm,

Next time when you use one of my quotations to make a point, can you please use the entire statement or thought, because in this case you deleted most of it which changed the meaning to enhance your argument.

Thank you

Ken

[B23iL23]

Indeed. I think you'll find someone at some point that will call one of these a "cruiser" and who am I to argue.



I guess you buy the boat to suit your cruising plan.

Originally Posted by boatman61

How does one define a Cruiser..
Day sailing.. then back to the house..
Weekend sailing.. and a couple of weeks a year pottering locally (within 100nm of home port) then back to the house..
Live aboard in a marina or regular anchorage who potters occasionally..
Live aboard summers and back to the house winters..
Snow Geese full time live aboard like Jim and Ann..
Live aboard who does the Atlantic circuit every year.. ie 2 transats/year.
Guess there will be varied opinions.

[Dennis.G]

Just an observation in similar trend in RVs:
Used to be that the common Recreational Vehicle was a camper in the back of a pickup truck, plus the occasional Winnebago 30 foot RV. Now days truck campers are almost a rarity and in the campground you will likely see ten big 40 foot diesel pusher bus RVs or 40 foot 5th wheel travel trailers for every truck camper. Not sure of all the reasons for this, but I think very similar reasons to why cruising boats have grown is size.

[billknny]

This whole thread pretty much confirms my observations on internet sailors.

Anybody who owns a boat smaller than yours is an under-resourced bum. Anybody with a boat bigger than yours, is a stuckup rich a--hole.


Because, after all your boat is perfect, and anything else is just a piece of junk or a wild extravagance, or maybe both.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by billknny

This whole thread pretty much confirms my observations on internet sailors.

Anybody who owns a boat smaller than yours is an under-resourced bum. Anybody with a boat bigger than yours, is a stuckup rich a--hole.


Because, after all your boat is perfect, and anything else is just a piece of junk or a wild extravagance, or maybe both.

Hahahahahahahaaaa !!! Love it..
Best post of the thread..

[Mike OReilly]

My view is that people should get the boat that is right for each of us. Decide for yourself.

Most of the discussion about which boat size or type is best, is largely an argument about why MY choice is best. Funny how I have never, ever, got into this kind of discussion with real world cruisers. It only happens here in the virtual world.

Each of us come to cruising with different backgrounds, different resources, and different skills. We have different needs, and often widely different wants. But we all want to live and travel on a boat — to cruise.

If cruising is about living and travelling on a boat, the facts show there is a broad range of boat size that does the job. Couples are cruising in boats ranging from the mid 20s, all the way to upper 60s. They appear to cluster in the the mid-40s these days, but that is largely an anecdotal observation (and you know what I think of anecdotal evidence ).

This is why I say, decide for yourself what you need and what you want. Match this to your capabilities and resources. And then go.

My personal advice is to get the smallest boat that matches your needs and wants. This forces people to think about what they really value. But if you’d rather just max everything out, then that’s fine too. I certainly don’t care. It just means your boat is more likely to be the sundowners gathering boat .

[TJ D]

Late getting into this one.

First, the idea that a competent couple can't handle a big boat is totally, demonstrably bogus. The gear to handle everything is so reliable that it's really just not an issue.


Jim Cate nailed it too. Modern construction achieves a better strength to weight ratio than the older boats. As an example, our current 55 footer weighs about 7 tons less than the 43 footer it replaced, and she's still built to DNV slamming standards for high speed offshore military craft.



Jenny and I have never felt like we're in danger of being overwhelmed by our boat, this despite a very powerful rig (SA/D of about 30). Ok, we sail more conservatively than we did on our smaller boats, but that's perfectly fine.



So, the creature comforts are a bonus, but I don't think that anybody (provided they have the skill to handle it) is sacrificing safety because they're on a bigger boat. I see little downside to this move to bigger rides for those who want them.


Ultimately, there's no right answer. Sail what you can afford and what you're comfortable with, and enjoy it. We don't give a rat's tookus what somebody's sailing on-the view from the deck is the same, as the saying goes. We'll just get there faster and with ice cream the whole way...

[Capdave360]

In 1987 I ran a 78' ketch (90' overall) with a single cook/stew (a young lady who weighed in at about 95 lbs). That 80 ton boat was all furling sails, all hydraulic winches. We sailed her many thousands of miles just the two of us. All coastal sailing, with or without owners, was just the two of us. We took crew offshore. And we got plenty of boatyard and day labor help as needed to maintain her and do the heavy jobs.

I was in a boatyard yesterday, and there she was. Looking pretty good for the age, I must say. Chatted with the crew - they're still running pretty much the same program, just the two of them. They race her though, and carry a full crew for that.

My point is that with the proper gear you can cruise almost anything short handed. The real measure is how much boat do you want to take care of? That boat was waaaay more than a full time job for two people to care for.

I think boats have actually gotten easier to take care of, with better materials and devices. My personal limit is I don't want caring for my liveaboard cruising boat to be more than a roughly 1/3 time job for the two of us. That's all up, from cleaning to yard periods, and everything in between. So if we average about 700 hours/year each that suits us. Oh - and we have no exterior woodwork!

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

There are many costs of boat ownership that are ongoing: marina fees or mooring fees many places, insurances of various kinds, but the most noxious of all, is hanging around depending on someone else who is already behind schedule to finish up, whether it is repairs, re-fits, or installing new *stuff*. Way better if you can get stuck into it and do it yourself. Which for "professional people" means what they might consider a step down, to "mechanic-ing" or "electrician-ing" or "plumber-ing." So, imho, some professionals look down on the trades and are disinterested to learn. They pay, in terms of time spent not sailing, not enjoying freedom, lying in marinas overseeing jobs, jobs that multiply with the complexity of the boat.

I agree. I've never understood why so many people of obvious intellect and capability choose to hire out -- usually at astronomical rates -- simple repairs and maintenance on their cars, homes, and boats.


I think it's interesting to contemplate the extent to which the size and complexity of a boat contributes to operating costs. I'm going to leave those topics for another thread, though.

[Jammer]

Well, the consensus I feel is emerging from this is that that there's no safety-related reason for a couple to stick to smaller (<40' or so) boats.


It does occur to me that there must be some point at which the size of the boat makes some mistakes and system failures more critical. How large of an anchor can a couple reasonably raise without a windlass? At what point can a couple no longer safely lash a sail when its furler has jammed? At what point is it no longer feasible for one or two people to remove and replace a mainsail? Maybe it's possible to make it all the way into superyacht territory before reaching these points, but I don't think so.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I agree. I've never understood why so many people of obvious intellect and capability choose to hire out -- usually at astronomical rates -- simple repairs and maintenance on their cars, homes, and boats.


I think it's interesting to contemplate the extent to which the size and complexity of a boat contributes to operating costs. I'm going to leave those topics for another thread, though.

I have a number of friends with boats who have zero interest in maintaining their vessels. They'd rather jump aboard and go sailing than spend even half a morning doing work they have little apptitude or time for, which is good for the boating industry. If everyone's a DYIer, then a lot of businesses would go under. This might not be the same mindset for cruisers who need to be a bit more independent depending on where they choose to cruise. Same with size and type of boat - to each his (or her) own. And really...why do we feel the need to judge others' choices like this? It takes all kinds to make the world more interesting.

[DeValency]

Hmmm... Hey Mike my old hero! based on what you wrote below here and as you are actually writing here, you must be just another “internet cruiser”..... otherwise you wouldn’t even know how to use a browser...

This post was sent straight from my SSB!

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

My view is that people should get the boat that is right for each of us. Decide for yourself.

Most of the discussion about which boat size or type is best, is largely an argument about why MY choice is best. Funny how I have never, ever, got into this kind of discussion with real world cruisers. It only happens here in the virtual world.

Each of us come to cruising with different backgrounds, different resources, and different skills. We have different needs, and often widely different wants. But we all want to live and travel on a boat — to cruise.

If cruising is about living and travelling on a boat, the facts show there is a broad range of boat size that does the job. Couples are cruising in boats ranging from the mid 20s, all the way to upper 60s. They appear to cluster in the the mid-40s these days, but that is largely an anecdotal observation (and you know what I think of anecdotal evidence ).

This is why I say, decide for yourself what you need and what you want. Match this to your capabilities and resources. And then go.

My personal advice is to get the smallest boat that matches your needs and wants. This forces people to think about what they really value. But if you’d rather just max everything out, then that’s fine too. I certainly don’t care. It just means your boat is more likely to be the sundowners gathering boat .

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Well, the consensus I feel is emerging from this is that that there's no safety-related reason for a couple to stick to smaller (<40' or so) boats.


It does occur to me that there must be some point at which the size of the boat makes some mistakes and system failures more critical. How large of an anchor can a couple reasonably raise without a windlass? At what point can a couple no longer safely lash a sail when its furler has jammed? At what point is it no longer feasible for one or two people to remove and replace a mainsail? Maybe it's possible to make it all the way into superyacht territory before reaching these points, but I don't think so.

How many times in the lifetime of a mainsail would it ever be removed from the boom/lazyjack bag and if it was required you take a berth and get the sail maker down to help and take it away.

Anchor windlass? Had ours fail with 150lb pick, all chain and 65 tonne boat attached.
Windlass has manual override, so with a fair amount of difficulty I could get it up, maybe.
Now we have a manual 3 speed trailer winch that can be mounted out front to pull a few metres at a time.

Workarounds and redundancy.