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Old 18-07-2012, 13:37   #526
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Bah! I am very new, and maybe impatient as I have only read the first 8 pages of posts, but there's very little real/useful information in this thread (with a few exceptions, Mark and Curmudgeon). I am trying to decide on a small blue water boat and have listened to all the arguments pro and con and I'm no closer. I think the right boat, like the right girl will just knock me on my butt when I see her! ...Then I'll get a good surveyor or take her to meet Mom depending on which one is first!
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Old 18-07-2012, 14:45   #527
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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I think the right boat, like the right girl will just knock me on my butt when I see her! ...Then I'll get a good surveyor or take her to meet Mom depending on which one is first!
I would be careful about this, falling in love with a boat at first sight is almost as dangerous as falling for a girl at first sight.

Both a surveyor and Mom really can just tell you if all her pieces are in good looking condition.

Other than that just toss out internet expert opinions and get a boat you like!
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Old 18-07-2012, 15:56   #528
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Yes but it's not at all clear In boats what's the equivalent of a stradivarious , long Keel, fin, spade etc etc most expensive boats are just bavarias with better interior woodwork.

Dave
Yeah Right.
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Old 18-07-2012, 16:29   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Yes but it's not at all clear In boats what's the equivalent of a stradivarious , long Keel, fin, spade etc etc most expensive boats are just bavarias with better interior woodwork.

Dave
We have had more than a few discussions on this forum and I know you know better than this. There are vast differences between the production methodologies of boats beyond wood work.

Just some examples of structural differences in fibreglass boats of various qualities

1. Layup of hull to deck joints
2. Method of securing the tabbing of bulkheads
3. Method of resin junction into molds, and volume of resin used
4. Rigging diameters chosen for comparable mast heights
5. Coring material and core laying method, materials and properties
6. Glass and resin thickness
7. Window material and bonding/attaching method
8. Deck construction...

Whether a Bene, Jene or a Bavaria is a suitable circumnavigator?

I wouldn't buy one for that purpose but there are many on this forum who have bought one of these type boats and are successfully and happily circumnavigating as we speak
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Old 18-07-2012, 20:12   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor

We have had more than a few discussions on this forum and I know you know better than this. There are vast differences between the production methodologies of boats beyond wood work.

Just some examples of structural differences in fibreglass boats of various qualities

1. Layup of hull to deck joints
2. Method of securing the tabbing of bulkheads
3. Method of resin junction into molds, and volume of resin used
4. Rigging diameters chosen for comparable mast heights
5. Coring material and core laying method, materials and properties
6. Glass and resin thickness
7. Window material and bonding/attaching method
8. Deck construction...

Whether a Bene, Jene or a Bavaria is a suitable circumnavigator?

I wouldn't buy one for that purpose but there are many on this forum who have bought one of these type boats and are successfully and happily circumnavigating as we speak
Yes but in most cases it's not clear when comparing one against the other what is best ( often people just compare what is traditional )

The fact is those things you mention rarely give trouble.

For example let's take Windows I had it argued that bonded In windows are stronger then in frame ones. Yet it's not traditional and many deride it as " production".

I had it argued that modern structural adhesives are better then mechanical fastening.

Ive seen better deck hardware on a jeaneau performance line then a halberd Rassey

Unless you take a proper engineering analysis approach we can't really say. Neither types have significant " at sea" failure rates.

Dave
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Old 18-07-2012, 23:29   #531
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The doors in our latest two rounds of apparatus are glued together, not welded. The glue is stronger and more uniform to apply. It can be constructed using jigs and less skilled workers. It's demonstrably better in every way, but the old timers around here refuse to believe that any adhesive is even as good as welded, much less better.

I went to six different traffic wrecks today, two of them somewhat severe. The worst injuries were in an older American car. It's built solid, but the newer cars are designed to absorb energy, not transmit it to the passengers. "they don't build them like they used to" is an often heard lament, and it's true. Good thing, too.

Of course, I drive a ten year old pickup, and sail a 37 year old Valiant, so what do I know?

JRM
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Old 19-07-2012, 01:15   #532
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There are many on CF who write about blue water yachts in an authoritive tone while they do not own and have never owned one in their lives! Some never even owned any boat at all and are just here to make fun answering to those who ask.

If you want to know, better read blogs from those who own and sail their boats

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 19-07-2012, 03:08   #533
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Yes but in most cases it's not clear when comparing one against the other what is best ( often people just compare what is traditional )

The fact is those things you mention rarely give trouble.

For example let's take Windows I had it argued that bonded In windows are stronger then in frame ones. Yet it's not traditional and many deride it as " production".

I had it argued that modern structural adhesives are better then mechanical fastening.

Ive seen better deck hardware on a jeaneau performance line then a halberd Rassey

Unless you take a proper engineering analysis approach we can't really say. Neither types have significant " at sea" failure rates.

Dave
First of all, you cannot compare that easily. You do not know, for the simple reason the manufacturer will not tell you, what methods are, or will be used for the lay up of the hull and securing the bulkheads.
Fabrication of hull is not an optical issue. Whatever is optical, you may compare.
Look at Laura Dekker with her aged Gin Fizz happily circling around.
All boats have their own particular issues, no exceptions whatsoever.
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Old 19-07-2012, 05:22   #534
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

The boat I'm currently dreaming of is the RM 1060. It's different, it's broad and light, and people have been sailing it all over the world, so it must be up to it.
But then sometimes I realize that for less $$$$ I can also get a Hanse 415, which is bigger, and quite probably would get me most places in safety as well.

But it wouldn't give me the same satisfaction of owning something special.

What matters is not if it's Jeaneau or Hanse or Bavaria or a steel Koopmans design.
It's whether you can live with it I think.
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Old 19-07-2012, 06:04   #535
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

The Koopmans (Dick Sr) designs are unequaled according to seaworthiness and comfort.
Quite unknown outside Holland but they are locally (Holland) very sought after and even the older ones bring high prices. The Breehorn 37 is build in FRP, the rest is mostly aluminium and a steel one here and there.

When I was sailing on the Nymphea, Dick Sr was our neighbour so I had lots of chats with him.
RM is a very modern concept, for me too modern.
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Old 19-07-2012, 06:36   #536
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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The Koopmans (Dick Sr) designs are unequaled according to seaworthiness and comfort.
They are. But they are also quite expensive, and they tend to be heavy. A lot are buld in steel.

The question on has to ask here is if the extra seaworthiness is worth the price. If I see all those people cruising the world in production boats, in comfort and safety, I wonder if a lot of the extra value of a Koopmans isn't merely as a "signal", an indication of the kind of cruiser you are, to distinguish yourself from the Hoi Polloi in their Bavarias and Jeanneaus.
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Old 19-07-2012, 07:36   #537
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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First of all, you cannot compare that easily. You do not know, for the simple reason the manufacturer will not tell you, what methods are, or will be used for the lay up of the hull and securing the bulkheads.
Fabrication of hull is not an optical issue.
Never had an issue with visiting the factories, and infact, most factories want you to tour and welcome any questions asked.. they want to sell you a new boat..
Bought a new Catalina and was welcomed and had a indepth tour of the factory..
Did the same with PS, Beneteau USA, and Beneteau and Jeanneau ..
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Old 19-07-2012, 07:57   #538
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
If you want to know, better read blogs from those who own and sail their boats

cheers,
Nick.
This one is pretty cool,they went all the way with a First 40.7;
030 Bestemming Antarctica Archieven | giebateau.weblog.nl

It is in Dutch so you'll need Google translate
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Old 19-07-2012, 08:21   #539
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Never had an issue with visiting the factories, and infact, most factories want you to tour and welcome any questions asked.. they want to sell you a new boat..
Bought a new Catalina and was welcomed and had a indepth tour of the factory..
Did the same with PS, Beneteau USA, and Beneteau and Jeanneau ..
Visiting a shipyard is not the point of the issue. Paying a visit to a yard is far away from intimately known all production processes.

KVB

Do you have a Koopmans? Ask insiders they may tell you something.
There are a number of Koopmans designs that are build in small series.
Nonetheless, his designs are not produced in comparable numbers of Bavaria, Janneau etc.
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Old 19-07-2012, 08:38   #540
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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There are many on CF who write about blue water yachts in an authoritive tone while they do not own and have never owned one in their lives! Some never even owned any boat at all and are just here to make fun answering to those who ask.

If you want to know, better read blogs from those who own and sail their boats

cheers,
Nick.
Question for you Nick and the others here:

How does one really make blanket statements about such things? I looked for a while, and looked at every boat even near my price range in a large swath of area. If I learned anything, it's that you can't prejudge any one boat based on it's supposed pedigree or Internet description.

We made an offer on a Beneteau 393 that had been back and forth to Hawaii several times, singlehanded. I would have felt comfortable sailing the world in it. I looked at a not-too-old Tartan that was in such a state that I wouldn't have felt comfortable sailing it to Catalina. I've heard many arguments about why Tartan is supposed to be so much better than Beneteau, but in those two real world examples of boats I looked at to purchase, I would take the Beneteau any day and twice on Sundays. In fact, if the owner's estate had really wanted to sell instead of just dangling the boat, I'd be sailing it right now. I also looked at a 35 year old Tartan that had everything I could have wanted or needed except one (which unfortunately was in our "must have" category), and it kills me that I had to pass on it. It was in sail away and sail the world tomorrow shape.

I have at least another dozen such examples, and I'm just a beginner. And as a beginner, I'd like to hear specifics. If someone says "Boat X isn't capable of crossing Y" please be specific as to why. Or, more importantly, if "Boat W is a great 'Blue Water' passagemaker" then please enumerate those attributes that make it so. That's what I'm really interested in.

I've read all the books that are commonly referred to here, but books are no substitute for miles. Isn't that why most of us are here, to tap the collective experience?

We recently bought an old Valiant because, in the end, the Admiral and I just plain liked it more than any other boat we looked at in our price range. By a large margin. And when we took it out to the islands for the first time last week, it just felt right.

I have no idea what my point is, other than it seems silly to paint boats with such a broad brush. Look at the individual, the right one will speak to you.

JRMJ
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