Bumps on a steel keel

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Delancy, that's not very nice. Do you really believe that?

There's the things you know you know, the things you know you don't know, and the things you don't know you don't know. I think the statement below expresses that you don't know what you don't know.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

do you not think that some of the advice that was offered came from folks who were not very knowledgeable? I do, because to offer advice, any knowledgeable person would want better information on what he was advising about. I did not advise ANY action on the part of the OP beyond supplying photos.

I could be wrong but based on this statement in the context of the OP's question I am pretty sure you don't have any personal first hand experience with steel fabrication or boatbuilding or steel boatbuilding.

Besides myself, Cheecako, Nicholson58, Reed1v, Lanevdl, Travis McGee, and captllyod all agreed that pouring too hot lead would not diminish the strength of the keel without insisting photographs or more information were necessary to make this determination. Roverhi didn't come right out and say it specifically, but seemed to agree it was a non-issue and didn't require more information or photos either.

Instead of beating around the bush why don't you just come right out and tell us which one of us are not very knowledgeable? Or do you think we are all not very knowledgeable?

[reed1v]

Enjoyed the Bath Iron Works sculpture video. 4" plate would make one heavy sail boat. Wonder if the steel is leftover scrap from their sub work or from the Z? Always enjoyed the museum next door. Great melding of real ship building and historical maritime events.
The Z still floats, but a bunch of us think that is because they have put flotation airbags under it. The reverse bow is sooooo ugly.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by Delancey

There's the things you know you know, the things you know you don't know, and the things you don't know you don't know. I think the statement below expresses that you don't know what you don't know.



I could be wrong but based on this statement in the context of the OP's question I am pretty sure you don't have any personal first hand experience with steel fabrication or boatbuilding or steel boatbuilding.

Besides myself, Cheecako, Nicholson58, Reed1v, Lanevdl, Travis McGee, and captllyod all agreed that pouring too hot lead would not diminish the strength of the keel without insisting photographs or more information were necessary to make this determination. Roverhi didn't come right out and say it specifically, but seemed to agree it was a non-issue and didn't require more information or photos either.

Instead of beating around the bush why don't you just come right out and tell us which one of us are not very knowledgeable? Or do you think we are all not very knowledgeable?

About 6 years ago the Washburn and Doughty yard in East Boothbay blew up and created intense fires that gutted a steel tugboat they were building. Heat high enough to turn the hull deep red. After things cooled down, the laser measurements all showed the hull still in specs. Steel is for real. Allowed to cool, it will come back to specs. Any engineer can figure out the expansion coefficients of dissimilar metals when they are going to be poured into one another, or any other variation. Guess there are no engineers on this website.

[Delancey]

The Serra stuff is really great. I have been lucky to have seen installations in NYC, Chicago, and Seattle. Besides being impressive just by virtue of their massive scale, for me personally the most amazing thing are the butt joints between continuously curved sections.

They are PERFECT! Hairline zero clearance joints on both sides of the plate with precisely fair curves. Something I think that is missed by people who have never rolled or formed metal. Even all the more amazing considering the size of the individual plates. Blows me away. Those with experience will understand what I am talking about.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Delancey

There's the things you know you know, the things you know you don't know, and the things you don't know you don't know. I think the statement below expresses that you don't know what you don't know.



I could be wrong but based on this statement in the context of the OP's question I am pretty sure you don't have any personal first hand experience with steel fabrication or boatbuilding or steel boatbuilding.

Besides myself, Cheecako, Nicholson58, Reed1v, Lanevdl, Travis McGee, and captllyod all agreed that pouring too hot lead would not diminish the strength of the keel without insisting photographs or more information were necessary to make this determination. Roverhi didn't come right out and say it specifically, but seemed to agree it was a non-issue and didn't require more information or photos either.

Instead of beating around the bush why don't you just come right out and tell us which one of us are not very knowledgeable? Or do you think we are all not very knowledgeable?

Which one of this group is not knowledgeable? How about Reed insisting that steel shrinks more than lead when cooling and thus welds itself to the lead? And then positing that no, not welded, but molecularly bonded?

How about Barnakiel flatly saying don't buy the boat based on the description given?

How about Chris95040 saying "run"?

How about Montenido saying don't buy?

With the exception of Reeds absolute mistakes, the others are opinions based on a vague description of faults. They indeed lacked knowledge of the construction and condition of the keel. I happen to agree with those who said that while the keel was not likely a serious issue, buying the boat would be a mistake for a newbie but chose not to say so for I felt inadequately informed as to the severity of the distortion. Hence the suggestion that photos would help.

And I wonder if you noticed that Travis (whose opinion and craftmanship I do respect) did agree that photos would be useful in assessing the situation. Why is this idea so bad?

As it happens, the keel on my boat is constructed of steel, with 4 tonnes of lead cast inside it. The fact that it is bolted to the bottom of a timber boat does not change the issues of shape, and my keel is also a bit distorted and requires fairing to achieve its proper hydrodynamic shape. The lead did shrink away from the shell, leaving a small gap, but in this design there are internal weldments that anchor the lead in place. We don't know much about the OP's keel design and for all we know it may lack this feature. So, I'm not an expert, but I do know something of the subject.

As to my personal experience, no, I'm not a shipwright, nor have I built a steel yacht, but yes, I've done steel fabrication, I've cast a keel, I've worked alongside a master shipwright simply for the experience. I make no claims as to expertise in those fields, though, but coupled with a lot of years around boats and some scientific training I venture to offer opinions here on CF. Sometimes folks have appreciated this. You, Delancy, don't, and that's ok with me, but I wish that you would stop the personal attacks. Argue with specific ideas... I could easily learn from you as I have from others here on CF, but please leave it at that.

Jim

[Delancey]

Apologies Jim for my misunderstanding you.

When you said "ANY knowledgable person" it sounded to me like an absolute statement which included everybody who responded but didn't demand photos or more information to answer the OP's simple question.

Not really sure how you expect that to be interpreted. Didn't know that when you said "ANY" that you actually meant a select few individuals and excluded all others.

I understand now that you are not very precise with your language.

Maybe in the future you would consider being more direct when addressing people rather than beating around the bush? Might eliminate some confusion others could experience about whatever point you are trying to make.

Cheers

[plpioko]

Guys, thank you all for your posts. You made really valuable points. I should get photos of that keel sometime next week and I will post them.
Then if I decide to go ahead with th at boat I am going to hire one of companies that can check that hull for me.

Regarding finishing that boat then I am not going to do that - I will hire someone to do that job.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by Delancey

The Serra stuff is really great. I have been lucky to have seen installations in NYC, Chicago, and Seattle. Besides being impressive just by virtue of their massive scale, for me personally the most amazing thing are the butt joints between continuously curved sections.

They are PERFECT! Hairline zero clearance joints on both sides of the plate with precisely fair curves. Something I think that is missed by people who have never rolled or formed metal. Even all the more amazing considering the size of the individual plates. Blows me away. Those with experience will understand what I am talking about.

Also helps to have one of the premier shipyards in the world available to help with the fabrications. The Navy always considered Bath and the old, departed Bethlehem Shipyard in Quincy, MA to be far superior in quality to all the other US yards. Generations of talent. True artists all.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Here is another Serra sculpture, titled "Vortex."

It is a permanent installation outside of the Fort Worth Museum of Modern Art.

The long curved steel plates are 2 inches thick! Immense, very tall, and awesome to feel and see.

Made of 2" steel slabs 10' wide and 67' tall, twisted, curved, and assembled with a 10' opening on top, the total weight is 230 tons.

[Cadence]

I guess what art is or isn't is a matter of personal choice.

[Travis McGee]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I guess what art is or isn't is a matter of personal choice.

One thing I know: It's going to be there for a LONG TIME. And there will be a lot of red rust stains on the cement around it.

[four winds]

Serra's work is best experienced in person. I've travelled hundreds and once thousands of miles to do so.

Imagine the process required to form those shapes. Amazing effort and expense for arts sake.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by plpioko

Guys, thank you all for your posts. You made really valuable points. I should get photos of that keel sometime next week and I will post them.
Then if I decide to go ahead with that boat I am going to hire one of companies that can check that hull for me.

Regarding finishing that boat then I am not going to do that - I will hire someone to do that job.

This thread was fairly abnormal with regard to opinions flying and such...

Thanks for hanging in there...

Can't wait for the pictures, and see what we're up against...

[Delancey]

Another off the hook sculpture by one of my favorite artists, Anish Kapoor, is the Cloud Gate (aka The Bean) located in Chicago.

Some very luscious mirror-polished stainless steel! Can you imagine an old S&S or Herrshoff design built like this? Would put any mega yacht to shame. If only the uber rich had real class. Enjoy!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_Gate

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by four winds

Serra's work is best experienced in person. I've travelled hundreds and once thousands of miles to do so.

True. While they are inspiring objects in and of themselves, I believe their purpose lies in the negative space they create and our experience with that space. He refers to them as installations meaning they are site specific.

Until he started making them humans have never experienced the volume or shape of space they create.

Maybe being at sea in square waves or going to Canyonlands in Utah would be as close as you could get. Nothing in architecture resembles them except maybe something like the elipitcal room at the Smithsonian.

An exception we can all relate to might be standing next to a boat on the hard. You know that funny feeling you get with this rounded shape looming over you with sides going away out of sight somewhere? Something like that.

The Bean, which follows Serra's work, is similar but the effect is compounded by the mirror polish.