Bumps on a steel keel

[Mithril Bham]

If you are dead-set on buying it then sonic test and have seller deduct from the purchase price.

[Jim Cate]

The bug up my ass is the claim repeated by many in this thread, including yourself, that the folks suggesting to look into the other options are somehow "not knowledgeable." I've seen enough projects to give one, even with scant details like this, a "sniff test".

No, Chris, I didn't make that statement. Never. I said that some of the advice that he had been given came from folks who were not knowledgeable, and I stand by that. I made no reference to buy/not buy advice, yours or anyone else's. I was talking about folks who worried about the keel falling off, or metallurgical changes in the steel shell due to the hot lead, subjects where the advisers seemed uninformed.

You are always welcome to express your opinions on CF. I'd rather not be lumped in with folks whose stated opinions seem to differ from mine when you express those opinions. Meanwhile, I've seen a fair few projects myself, and had i been asked, I'd have advised the OP to not buy this boat as a first sailing project... but I was not asked that question, so I didn't answer it.
.
So, please fine tune your sniff test a bit before you post.

And now I shall bow out of this discussion.

Jim

[chris95040]

Fair enough, and thanks for taking the time to clarify.

I suppose I can stop spamming this guy's thread now.

[captlloyd]

Yeah, I have problems with posts like this. The guy asked for advise about distortion on the keels of a steel hull. And we get comments like ''sounds like another pipe dream to me''. How disrespectful. I would have no problem with a statement like ''be aware of the amount of work an unfinished hull can present. Do your homework''. There is a happy medium there someplace. I know what it takes to build a steel sailboat. (64ft.) But far be it for me to stomp on someone's desire to have a boat.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Lead melts at about 620F steel melts around 2750F. Do the math.

The above stated figures are FACTS. I rely on these facts as well as my own personal experience welding and forging steel as the basis for my opinion that the lead was not hot enough to have adversely affected the strength of the keel when it was poured.

I made no other comment than that as long as the keel was designed and built properly, there was no cause for concern.

The notion that photos of some lumpy keel would be required to make this assessment comes from someone without knowledge of steel fabrication and is contradicted both by FACTS and by a consensus of opinions expressed by several individuals who do, including at least one with a very very impressive build under his belt.

Photos of some lumpy keel may reveal that the keel was not designed or built properly, but that was not the question asked and it was not the question I answered.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Travis McGee

How thick is the plating on the keel? I wouldn't worry about it, frankly. I built my 48' steel cutter over 20 years ago. I cast 10,000# of molten lead into the twin keels. (5,000" in each). Lead is pretty happy inside of iron. I've had no problem keeping paint on the keels or the hull during all that time.

Not sure if you have seen the Oyster threads, where the weight of the lead in the keel basically peeled the fiberglass/composite hull open, leading to rapid sinking. YIKES! I will be the first to admit that I have smacked a few rocks and reefs with my keels, putting some dents in the front edges. Probably a Beneteau or an Oyster would have dropped the keel off at some later point, considering some of the smacks we've taken. Oh, yes we have. And we just kept sailing, sometimes after spending a while to get unstuck. Sometimes we just bounced off after a mighty BAM! and kept sailing or motoring or motor-sailing.

Now, in light winds, a steel boat won't win any races. (The older I get, the happier I am to motor-sail.) But when it's nasty out, or rocks and reefs are out there in front of you, you will never regret the strength of steel.

Will my cast-lead keels "stand the test of time?" Well, they have been in salt water for 23 years now, ask me again in another couple of decades. In the meantime, I have NEVER regretted having steel between me and the ocean. NEVER. I have pounded on bottoms in waves that have shaken the mast like a whip, but never did I worry about my keel to hull joints (welded!), or my keels falling off. Never.

Damn Travis! That's a heck of a pipe dream you got there. Truly truly amazing! I am not worthy. Wow! Seriously, wow!

[Travis McGee]

When I went to building her, a lot of folks reminded me that 90% of such projects end in tears, divorce and humiliation as the hulks must be torched to bits and hauled away. But that just spurred me on. I'm not a quitter, and neither was (and is) my wife and partner.

It took two years, full time, to get into the water, and another year in the water to do the interior and rig her.

1990



1998

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Travis McGee

When I went to building her, a lot of folks reminded me that 90% of such projects end in tears, divorce and humiliation as the hulks must be torched to bits and hauled away. But that just spurred me on. I'm not a quitter, and neither was (and is) my wife and partner.

It took two years, full time, to get into the water, and another year in the water to do the interior and rig her.

1990



1998

Grats, it looks great! Just out of curiosity, is the pic with the frame, resting on the strong back you used? I can't believe, if so, you could pull it off on one that light?

[Travis McGee]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Grats, it looks great! Just out of curiosity, is the pic with the frame, resting on the strong back you used? I can't believe, if so, you could pull it off on one that light?

That strongback was plenty strong. The verticals were thick angle irons cut sharp and sledge hammered deep in the ground. It just had to be strong enough and stiff enough to create the rigid "bird cage" (frames and stringers) and then that new structure is very stiff, plenty stiff enough for plating.

This is hull partly plated, and the day the hull was rolled upright with a small crane. The strongback is still attached. Then I welded in the deck beams at each frame, and cut out the strongback cross-braces, then I plated the deck and so on.

[reed1v]

Some time ago came across a 34 foot steel cutter, rather small for using steel; but the interesting thing was the hull was rolled steel plates that wrapped around the hull. These were rather large plates in that only four plates made up the hull. The welds therefore were all vertical going from deck down to keel and back up to the deck on the opposite side. Hull was as smooth as a glass boat. The boat had to have been made in a foundry with a large, adjustable, steel press. The "ribs" seemed to have been added after the hull was made.

[Mithril Bham]

Originally Posted by Travis McGee

That strongback was plenty strong. The verticals were thick angle irons cut sharp and sledge hammered deep in the ground. It just had to be strong enough and stiff enough to create the rigid "bird cage" (frames and stringers) and then that new structure is very stiff, plenty stiff enough for plating.

This is hull partly plated, and the day the hull was rolled upright with a small crane. The strongback is still attached. Then I welded in the deck beams at each frame, and cut out the strongback cross-braces, then I plated the deck and so on.

You are a great inspiration. Mine took five years although I wasn't the builder.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Travis McGee

That strongback was plenty strong. The verticals were thick angle irons cut sharp and sledge hammered deep in the ground. It just had to be strong enough and stiff enough to create the rigid "bird cage" (frames and stringers) and then that new structure is very stiff, plenty stiff enough for plating.

This is hull partly plated, and the day the hull was rolled upright with a small crane. The strongback is still attached. Then I welded in the deck beams at each frame, and cut out the strongback cross-braces, then I plated the deck and so on.

I had sent you a PM thanks but figured I'd put it up here. I see why. I did from C-flex that was why I asked. You wouldn't want to sail my welding across a mud puddle.

[Delancey]

Travis, again, tip-o-the-hat!!! Really impressive.

It amazes me that someone would stand by their statement that you were unkowledgable because you did not feel you needed to see photos of the OP's keel to determine it would be fine inspite of distortons that occurred during a lead pour. Same for the other steel boatbuilders who agreed. The presumptuousness of it disappointing.

Just goes to show you that even Jim Cate cant help himself but to comment on things he knows nothing about.

[gjordan]

I may regret getting into the middle of a pissing match, but something that has not been mentioned is that lead shrinks when cooling. I dont know ( I am not pretending to be an expert) if a slow pour, or a fast pour would create less shrinkage, but when you have an unintended gap between the lead and the plating, you can get water in the space and create rust, or if the boat the OP is looking at has been in northern climates you could have water that freezes and expands to distort the plate. Unless you weld a sealed cap onto the keel, it is hard to keep water out. I have seen tar, cement, epoxy and a few unknowns to seal the top of the keel, and some of them will eventually leak. I have owned one steel boat and looked at and studied many used ones,and even on the best built boats, the fairness below the waterline is often not nearly as good as what will be visible when the boat is floating. The OP asked if it was fixable. I think the real question is "does it need fixing?" The beauty of steel (especially with the interior not in yet) is that anything is reasonably easy to fix. I will not give an opinion on cost or time or any of the other things that are being argued about. I hope the OP ends up with a great cruising boat, steel, glass, wood, whatever gets him sailing. Best of Luck. ______Grant.

[reed1v]

Surprise! All metals shrink when cooling. Hot lead will push out the steel and when they both cool, guess what? Steel shrinks more then lead. They will weld to each other.