Bestevaer 49ST

[Pelagic]

May I make a suggestion.
This thread has been such a gift of quality information provided by the OPs, that it would be a shame to dilute it with silly banter about polar bears or security opinions.

Why don't we take that to another thread and preserve this one as a Gift of Construction ideas

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

May I make a suggestion.
This thread has been such a gift of quality information provided by the OPs, that it would be a shame to dilute it with silly banter about polar bears or security opinions.

Why don't we take that to another thread and preserve this one as a Gift of Construction ideas

Well said. Best build thread ever!!!!!! FWIW, the security bars are a great idea and extremely well done.

[Alden]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Since you say you have lots of experience in security, etc, can you help clarify your concerns? there’s a lot in your post and I’m not sure I understand.

Are your concerns that somehow the measures Noelex has taken decrease safety? Like not allowing easy entry to the boat’s interior increases risk somehow? If so please elaborate for the rest of our education.

Or are you saying that avoiding high risk areas is the best defense?

The latter makes sense but would not be exclusive of better boat security which seems like it should only add to, not detract from, other risk avoidance tactics.

Golly, there's been a few contributions lately. All useful, in my view. Actually, I am keen to learn about how polar bears get into boats. This thread, about building a boat that can take intrepid folks to where the bears are, is IMO the perfect place for discussing this.

Hi Malbert. Thanks for seeking clarification about my thinking on security measures. I'm all for good security and risk management. The best form of security is planning to avoid things going wrong. The next best form is to have physical systems and procedures in place for when they do go wrong.

The point I made was based on direct comments I read early in the thread by the OPs that the physical systems designed into the boat would mean that going to rough places would be safer, because rough dudes would look for easier targets. I then simply observed that there would be a shortage or absence of easier targets in those rough places. This could then lead to the physical systems and procedures being needed, which is really not what sensible people such as NE and SWL want to happen. They agree. So that's all good.

We all wear seat belts and enjoy knowing we have airbags. Do we take increased risks while driving because we have these security measures in place? I don't think we do.

Question for NE and SWL - is there somewhere else on the interweb that you're showing off your wonderful yacht and your voyages? I've been looking and did find a test sail video on the KMY channel. Very nice.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Alden

Golly, there's been a few contributions lately. All useful, in my view. Actually, I am keen to learn about how polar bears get into boats. This thread, about building a boat that can take intrepid folks to where the bears are, is IMO the perfect place for discussing this.

They have "invaded" smaller boats for sure, thou dunno about cruising sailboats. They are big carnivores and can reach quite high up from water. Getting a good grip is the only thing they need to climb on the deck. Big boats with freeboard more than 1.5m / 5' might be safe I think but sugar scoop sterns, welcome!

[john61ct]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-206643-3.html

Looks like this video is down

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/472737292107671836/

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Alden

.........
Question for NE and SWL - is there somewhere else on the interweb that you're showing off your wonderful yacht and your voyages? I've been looking and did find a test sail video on the KMY channel. Very nice.

No, apart from what KM post on their website. We have no website or blog, not even a Facebook page. This thread has been the first thing online with personal information about us. We tend to be fairly private people .

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

They have "invaded" smaller boats for sure, thou dunno about cruising sailboats. They are big carnivores and can reach quite high up from water. Getting a good grip is the only thing they need to climb on the deck. Big boats with freeboard more than 1.5m / 5' might be safe I think but sugar scoop sterns, welcome!

With our swim platform up the freeboard is quite high, which would make boarding by a bear difficult, but not impossible. I have heard all sorts of tales from people cruising Svalbard. Locals warn not to leave food scraps on deck and not to fall asleep in the cockpit.

SWL

[Alden]

NE, SWL - quick question. I haven't been able to find what kind of keel arrangement you have on Zenith. From the interior it's not looking like a lifting keel, but it could be a Dykstra style centreboard. If the latter, is drying out workable, in the same manner as with the Boreal's and Garcia's?

Re polar bear discussions, I have friends heading for Svalbard as we speak in their aluminium yacht. I know they'll be renting a gun, but I did hear them talk about going camping ashore. Eek! I might have to risk looking like worrywart and suggest that spending the nights on-board (with an alarm on the transom) is a better idea.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Alden

NE, SWL - quick question. I haven't been able to find what kind of keel arrangement you have on Zenith. From the interior it's not looking like a lifting keel, but it could be a Dykstra style centreboard. If the latter, is drying out workable, in the same manner as with the Boreal's and Garcia's?

Ours is a fixed keel. KM build roughly half their boats with a lifting keel and half with a fixed keel. The designs generally use a ballasted keel rather than the Boreal/Garcia arrangement where all the ballast is in the bilge.

KM have even built one of their large aluminium exploration boats with a fully retracting keel, rudder, and propellor system, so anything is possible.

Originally Posted by Alden

Re polar bear discussions, I have friends heading for Svalbard as we speak in their aluminium yacht. I know they'll be renting a gun, but I did hear them talk about going camping ashore. Eek! I might have to risk looking like worrywart and suggest that spending the nights on-board (with an alarm on the transom) is a better idea.

When cruising Svalbard, having a gun always on hand is compulsory for protection against polar bears, even in the centre of the main town.

[real_goat]

Could you do a quick recap on which equipment worked and which didn’t (would probably be easier just to write about which didn’t work ��)?


I am sure that you have writen about it, but I have a few additional questions and would be delighted if you could answer them:
1. what do you use as a snubber for the anchor chain?
2. Do you own a drogue (JSD)?
3. Are you happy with all decisions you made in hindsight (e.g. webasto for refleks, bowthruster, ... )
4. Do you use an induction cooktop in addition to your gn espace?
5. What downwind/lightwind sails do you have and do you actually use them?
6. Do you run a hydrogenerator?
7. Which ram mount do you use? I am struggling to find a mount that fits an ipad pro 12.9 with a case.

Thanks!

[Alden]

Originally Posted by real_goat

Could you do a quick recap ...

Ooo, yes please! 🙂

For balance you might simply list things you’re pleased with while offering detail on things you’d change.

Some manufacturers host forums where customers, real and prospective, can discuss their experiences. Not yachtbuilders, IME.

[Alden]

So I've received a friendly reply email from Ms Jildou Huisman at KMY, with handy info focussing on the Bestevaer Pure yachts, noting that I'm keen (need!) to keep costs contained.

The Pure 45 looks eminently suitable and refreshingly appealing. It might solve some of the bugbear problems I've come up against from thoroughly examining the Hallberg-Rassy 44 and the Garcia Exploration 45.

Please, be frank and open with me - what's not to like about the Pure 45 that could become a bugbear or showstopper? To guide your thinking let me mention what's bugging me about the other two.

With the HR, I’m concerned about:

- getting cold to the bone from the more exposed watch-keeping position (how good is a cockpit tent?);

- interior storage space for large items (eg, sails, bikes);

- diesel tank volume of 430 l and hence limited motoring range (~650nm) and/or heating/generating/watermaking endurance;

- the more vulnerable nature of GRP hulls. An HR 48 was sunk in 2017 after being whacked by a whale's tail. The rescued owner has replaced it with a Garcia Exploration 45.

Things I love about the HR 44 are:

- its sailing performance and enjoyable sailing feel (really good, including upwind in light airs);

- the forward visibility from the cockpit and shelter under the well designed sprayhood;

- the interior layout and look, with a big aft cabin, two other sleeping cabins and two good bathrooms (that do not open onto the salon/kitchen area!), each with separated showers;

- the very well sound insulated (and accessible) engine room, which renders the engine almost inaudible from the cockpit at sensible revs;

With the Garcia, I'm concerned about:

- it is heavy, wide, underpowered and slow. Its sailing performance might leave me disappointed. I’m told it’s comfortable, with a soft, easy motion;

- the cramped space and feel of the salon and the slit windows, which are not a lot of use when heeling, including looking forward;

- forward visibility from the cockpit is not good, even with the new windows in the dodger;

- the central forward berth is not well set up for sleeping while underway. A friend is installing hammocks to use on the mattress.

- the insulation scheme, while effective and twice as thick as the Allures boats, is composed of self adhesive foam panels of varying thickness (75mm max against the hull down to around 10mm or less on the ribs and internal bulkheads) and I wonder if those panels and sheets will stay stuck over time;

- gaining decent internal storage means converting the starboard aft cabin to a utility room, though this also provides a bigger bathroom with a decent shower, along with more accessible space for a washing machine and generator;

- I'm not convinced it is as well ventilated as I would like, but it does have extraction fans, which would be quite handy;

Unlike the HR, there's nothing I particularly love about the Garcia, but its good points are:

- solid construction, good seaworthiness, ability to dry out without fuss;

- good diesel tank capacity of 700 l (some say a bit more);

- the arrangement of the transom, with compartments for line drums, mounting for auxiliary propulsion or a water generator, etc, is good. The rear arch is standard and handy;

- I'm told the insulation is effective, for sound and cold/heat. The floor boards are foam core insulated and they work. I've listened to how well they attenuate engine noise in the salon - less good in the cockpit though.

*****

If you’ve read this far you’re a champion! What I need to do (before booking a visit to KMY) is to weigh up whether the Pure 45 comes unstuck in respect to the points mentioned above.

Some quick thoughts on the Pure 45 of the positive kind are:

- its narrow hull form and waterline length should make it go well, probably much the same as the HR 44. Better than the Garcia I would think;

- I think we'd go for the centreboard option (if its sailing performance is good enough!), which I understand will enable drying out (flopped over?) and should also allow generous tuning of the boat's natural frequency at anchor, to avoid being in sync with swell;

- the full aluminium hull and coachroof/pilot house looks to be every bit as well made and strong as the Garcia and Boreal boats I’ve crawled through. The watertight bulkheads are a mighty fine idea;

- the cockpit locker storage looks useful, but I can’t find photos. The forepeak storage is ideal.

- the longer length of the cockpit benches with tiller steering looks to be ideal for stretching out;

- natural ventilation looks better than in the Garcia;

- my wife and I like the airy look and feel of the interior. Headspace in the salon seems generous.

Early concerns with the Pure 45 are:

- is there space for a washing machine? And a generator? Watermaker? What’s access like?

- the round hull portlights look to be very expensive but desirable options;

- does the pilot house seating arrangement actually work? Are those foot-boards wide enough for seating comfort? Can you lean back and reach your feet across to the other side? These seats don’t seem very long. Would a fill-in board and cushion make lying laterally feasible? Did SWL and NE stretch their pilot house to lengthen these seats?

Any and all comments will be most appreciated. Go ahead, pop my bubble! Right now I’m enjoying the feeling that I might have found a pretty handy solution.

[john61ct]

Please start your own threads guys, leave this one usefully focused on the thread's boat and other topics of interest to its owners.

[Alden]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Please start your own threads guys, leave this one usefully focused on the thread's boat and other topics of interest to its owners.

That's probably a good idea John. I'll copy to a new thread and enjoy learning from the replies, wherever they come in.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by real_goat

Could you do a quick recap on which equipment worked and which didn’t (would probably be easier just to write about which didn’t work ��)?

The only equipment that failed abysmally was the Jefa autopilot due to a manufacturing defect (a wire Jefa had trapped under the top cover allowed ingress of moisture with extensive damage). We will start a seperate thread with photos detailing this.

The list of what had worked particularly well is long and we will cover this shortly.

Originally Posted by real_goat

I am sure that you have writen about it, but I have a few additional questions and would be delighted if you could answer them:
1. what do you use as a snubber for the anchor chain?

14 mm nylon runs down the length of the deck from the rear bollard (soft shackle connection there) and connects to a length of 14 mm HMWPE Acera that goes over the bow roller for chafe protection. This is connected with a captive soft shackle to the chain above the waterline. In use it floats beautifully above the deck as it passes through three low friction rings that are connected to turning points via removable Bullseye soft shackles (design as in my avatar).

Originally Posted by real_goat

2. Do you own a drogue (JSD)?

I am in the middle of making one.

Originally Posted by real_goat

3. Are you happy with all decisions you made in hindsight (e.g. webasto for refleks, bowthruster, ... )

Extremely happy. It was a long process though, that lead to these desicions. It took a few decades thinking about our ultimate boat, a decade of experiencing living with a similar sized aluminium boat, then several months drafting our initial requirements, and finally 9 months of drafting formal specifications.
I can’t think of much we would change (a few plumbing things), but this did not happen by happy coincidence. Planning this project was essentially a full time “job” for an extended time.

Originally Posted by real_goat

4. Do you use an induction cooktop in addition to your gn espace?

Yes, but only in summer when we have excess solar power to burn. Same goes for an electric kettle. When the temperature drops and correspondingly solar power decreases, all boiling of water and stove top cooking is done on the Refleks. This has meant that even with using the oven nightly, one and a half 10 kg gas bottles have lasted us a year. Now that we have just added a third bottle we carry 2 year’s supply of gas on board, dramatically reducing the problems associated with organising gas refills in a variety of countries while at anchor.
By the way, the GN Espace has been excellent. Some of our reduced gas usage has probably been thanks to its insulation increasing efficiency.

Originally Posted by real_goat

5. What downwind/lightwind sails do you have and do you actually use them?

We have a gennaker, but have not actually needed to use it yet. A poled out yankee works well downwind in moderate air.

Originally Posted by real_goat

6. Do you run a hydrogenerator?

No, no need. No generator either. We rely almost purely on solar, as engine run time is low (90 hrs over the last year).

Originally Posted by real_goat

7. Which ram mount do you use? I am struggling to find a mount that fits an ipad pro 12.9 with a case.

I have not been able to find anything that accomodates the case, but this has not been a problem. We clamp our iPads to the vertical 50mm stainless steel rails that are just inside the pilothouse. This means the iPads are easily visible/reachable from the cockpit, while still being protected from the elements. In this location they don’t need a waterproof case.

We use our older 10” iPads for this application. Part number for the ram holder for these is RAM-HOL-UN9U. The part number for a pro 12.9 (also without the case) seems to be RAM-HOL-AP21U.


Having lived with the boat for a year we will slowly add some detailed posts on how the systems have worked, which should hopefully give some ideas for those building or refitting a boat, even if it is not a Bestevaer.

SWL

[Alden]

Originally Posted by Alden

That's probably a good idea John. I'll copy to a new thread and enjoy learning from the replies, wherever they come in.

And this is that thread. Happy to have your input. Thanks.

Advice on Bestevaer Pure 45 please - Cruisers & Sailing Forums