Bestevaer 49ST

[Alden]

Yes, it's a bit of a stretch ...

I watched a vid today of some guys who sailed the North West Passage, the hard way, in a ~40 year old Hallberg-Rassy 31 footer. Food for thought.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Alden

Hello noelex and SL.

Again, thanks for this thread. Inspiring stuff!

My wife and I have been looking closely at a few new yachts and have also been looking at your Bestevaer.

We think we've narrowed down to two, the nature of which could define the type of sailing we do, as you'll understand when I say that they are: a Hallberg-Rassy 44, which we think we would very much enjoy sailing to the destinations it is well suited to, which is most of the usual places that aren't too risky. Close to the HR 44 on our list of possibilities is the Garcia Exploration 45, which could/would open up the possibilities for extended adventures, but in our eyes would not be as enjoyable to sail (or live aboard) as the HR. I do however note your point that robustness, reliability and security are pretty enjoyable things to have.

The HR range and the Garcia Exploration boats are both good choices. We looked very closely at the Garcia Exploration, spending a couple of days at the factory before deciding on a KM Bestevear.

As to cost, you really need to talk to KM. They are very relaxed and friendly to deal with and will not pester you with hard sell tactics. Apart from the size of the boat, the cost is very dependent on the interior surface finishes, equipment installed and degree of customisation.

The Bestevaer “Pure” range is considerably cheaper as these are “semi production” models so the degree of customisation is more limited, allowing KM to standardise many of the production steps. Nevertheless there are still are the usual options that might be offered in HR or Garcia, so they are a great alternative.

I know choosing a new boat is a daunting task. KM’s open day on April 13 is a good way to see many of their boats if you can make it. Send me a PM if you have any specific questions. If you prefer, we have a good internet connection at the moment so perhaps a Skype call would suit you better.

[Alden]

Hello NE and SWL.

I'm reading through the thread again; such a mine of good information.

I've been in a quandary about a particular design aspect since finding the thread way back, and just now my scattered thoughts have coalesced to the point where I can describe them, perhaps even rationally. I don't wish to offend, but my background in intel, security and public safety leaves me unable to remain silent.

I'm troubled about your approach to security. While I like the idea of leaving the boat open for ventilation while you go ashore, in the knowledge that the bars at the hatches and companionway will cause lazy burglars to give up (or come back with a small child, a monkey, a bottle-jack or a Milwaukee 18V angle grinder), I don't like the concept that these bars or the sturdy door to the forward cabin will keep you safe from characters who are a step or two up the ladder from honest, run-of-the-mill burglars.

The idea that rough dudes will go looking for an easier target is not consistent with the view that these security measures, along with the boat's overall utility, will enable you to 'enjoy' out of the way, somewhat unsafe places other cruisers don't go to. There won't be any easier targets. You'll be there on your own. Further, the rough dudes I talk of will simply take your boat, with you curled up all cozy in your bed, wherever they like. Your safe, low maintenance boat will become 'no maintenance', by you or the new owners. I suspect your only concern will be the inevitable penalty fees payable upon early withdrawal of your term deposits. Like bankers, the boat's new owners will have little sympathy; but who knows, they might offer a discounted ransom demand in respect of this. :|

Is it possible to enjoy cruising in an area where we are thinking that retreating to a fortress, or indeed fighting, might become necessary?

There it is. A nagging doubt laid bare. Duty done. I'm not looking for a reply on this. Best not to anyway; insurance companies make advantage of statements about safety intentions.

[noelex 77]

Most sail boats have almost non existent security, so it is not hard to significantly improve on the normal standard. I suspect many sail boats could be entered as quickly and easily with screwdriver as they can with the correct key. However, we are under no illusions that any boat can be made completely safe. Protection from real piracy and men with machine guns, for example, is impossible.

We love cruising out of the way places, but this does not mean dangerous locations. Many remote places are often safer than busy locations. For example we spent the summer in the Shetland islands and the winter on the north west coast of Scotland. These places have a low crime rate, but they see very few boats, especially anchored outside the normal sailing season.

However, long distance cruising boats do need to sometimes transit more marginal locations so steps to improve security are beneficial.

[john61ct]

Living your life in fear of the unfamiliar is no way to live.

Common sense precautions and basic advance "intel" is enough to ensure getting the risk level appropriately low.

Yes major **** happens, but thank dog much less often than with the "normal" risks we take, using propane, driving cars, listening to doctors. . .

[s/v Jedi]

Safety measures like bars blocking hatch openings etc. are not to cope with crime; they are the gatekeeper, in case the normal measures like not going where it's bad etc. fail. They are like a fire extinguisher, like a first aid kit

All commercial ships/crew are trained for this and have safe rooms, procedures etc. It is the standard to think about this and install counter measures, and the success rate of doing so is stunning.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Safety measures like bars blocking hatch openings etc. are not to cope with crime; they are the gatekeeper, in case the normal measures like not going where it's bad etc. fail. They are like a fire extinguisher, like a first aid kit

All commercial ships/crew are trained for this and have safe rooms, procedures etc. It is the standard to think about this and install counter measures, and the success rate of doing so is stunning.

Getting slammed for thinking about safety... who would have thought?

Matt

[packeteer]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Getting slammed for thinking about safety... who would have thought?



Matt

slammed?? I don't see any name calling or personal attacks.
seems like a mature discussion with different points of view

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Alden

. . . I'm troubled about your approach to security. While I like the idea of leaving the boat open for ventilation while you go ashore, in the knowledge that the bars at the hatches and companionway will cause lazy burglars to give up (or come back with a small child, a monkey, a bottle-jack or a Milwaukee 18V angle grinder), I don't like the concept that these bars or the sturdy door to the forward cabin will keep you safe from characters who are a step or two up the ladder from honest, run-of-the-mill burglars. . . .

Was such a concept articulated? I don't think so. It's just one extra layer of security; certainly not a guaranty of any kind.


I don't even lock my boat over most summers (didn't even have a key once for a whole summer), so this is a fairly alien concept to me, but it still seems very sensible to me, something all boats should have in my opinion.


As Noelex said -- most boats (certainly including mine) can be opened with a screwdriver. These measures just make the boat more like the typical house. Doesn't mean you're safe from a determined bad guy.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Alden

Hello NE and SWL.

I'm reading through the thread again; such a mine of good information.

I've been in a quandary about a particular design aspect since finding the thread way back, and just now my scattered thoughts have coalesced to the point where I can describe them, perhaps even rationally. I don't wish to offend, but my background in intel, security and public safety leaves me unable to remain silent.

I'm troubled about your approach to security. While I like the idea of leaving the boat open for ventilation while you go ashore, in the knowledge that the bars at the hatches and companionway will cause lazy burglars to give up (or come back with a small child, a monkey, a bottle-jack or a Milwaukee 18V angle grinder), I don't like the concept that these bars or the sturdy door to the forward cabin will keep you safe from characters who are a step or two up the ladder from honest, run-of-the-mill burglars.

The idea that rough dudes will go looking for an easier target is not consistent with the view that these security measures, along with the boat's overall utility, will enable you to 'enjoy' out of the way, somewhat unsafe places other cruisers don't go to. There won't be any easier targets. You'll be there on your own. Further, the rough dudes I talk of will simply take your boat, with you curled up all cozy in your bed, wherever they like. Your safe, low maintenance boat will become 'no maintenance', by you or the new owners. I suspect your only concern will be the inevitable penalty fees payable upon early withdrawal of your term deposits. Like bankers, the boat's new owners will have little sympathy; but who knows, they might offer a discounted ransom demand in respect of this. :|

Is it possible to enjoy cruising in an area where we are thinking that retreating to a fortress, or indeed fighting, might become necessary?

There it is. A nagging doubt laid bare. Duty done. I'm not looking for a reply on this. Best not to anyway; insurance companies make advantage of statements about safety intentions.

Since you say you have lots of experience in security, etc, can you help clarify your concerns? there’s a lot in your post and I’m not sure I understand.

Are your concerns that somehow the measures Noelex has taken decrease safety? Like not allowing easy entry to the boat’s interior increases risk somehow? If so please elaborate for the rest of our education.

Or are you saying that avoiding high risk areas is the best defense?

The latter makes sense but would not be exclusive of better boat security which seems like it should only add to, not detract from, other risk avoidance tactics.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Living your life in fear of the unfamiliar is no way to live.

Common sense precautions and basic advance "intel" is enough to ensure getting the risk level appropriately low.

Yes major **** happens, but thank dog much less often than with the "normal" risks we take, using propane, driving cars, listening to doctors. . .

Hi John
We certainly don’t “live in fear”. This isn’t a lifestyle for anyone prone to that . We have simply had a few safety items installed as a precaution to minimise the risks a little, and this is much easier to think about at the design stage rather than retrospectively.

Some of the fittings such as the SS security bars on the hatches are removable. As we have spent the last summer in the Shetlands and autumn and winter in the Hebrides, security has not been an issue yet so the only bars fitted have been done so as they provide a brilliant rack to warm or dry off clothes. They are also perfect for hanging Christmas decorations .

As for the watertight door, it is closed on passage (giving “security” of another kind). Also, as I am an early bird, if I shut the door when I get up it gives superb sound insulation so I can clatter about to my heart’s content without waking Noelex .

SWL

[john61ct]

Yes, my comment was in response to those expressing ideas along "not secure enough" lines.

[TeddyDiver]

I reckon polar bears can break a hatch acryl easily, hence security bars..

[JPA Cate]

^^^
Kinda hard for the polar bear to board the boat. Never heard of them where SWL says they've been.

Ann

[olaf hart]

Locks only keep your friends out...