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Old 17-12-2014, 06:42   #46
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

Polux,

T'as raté le coche mon pote.... Il dit que ses winches sur le 44 sont trop petits.

:-)

PS: I owned a 46 Exclusive (1997). Owner's version 3 cabins with deep keel and tall rig. I never raced her but she was sturdy and fast. Many Oysters wondered what blazed by them... the fact that she closely resembled a Swan did not create friction :-)

At construction time, she was still part of the semi custom Bav boats. I've had a number of surveyors tell me my Swan looked great. (I had membrane sails on her too... )

Jean-Pierre
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Old 17-12-2014, 07:34   #47
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Sorry you have confused me with your post. What one considers an offshore boat is debatable and the opinions varies but are you saying that the Vision 46 is not an offshore boat and the Vision 44 is an offshore boat? Or are you saying that both are not offshore boats in your opinion?
Sorry - didn't mean to confuse anyone. Too wordy, perhaps. Allow me to precis:

IMO the new Farr-designed Vision 46 would not make a good offshore boat, as both the cockpit and saloon are too wide.

IMO the older J&J-designed Vision 44 does make a reasonable offshore boat. Else I wouldn't have persevered for over 7 years and 20,000 nm of offshore cruising in one.

Hope that clears things up?
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Old 17-12-2014, 07:43   #48
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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Il dit que ses winches sur le 44 sont trop petits. :-)
Yes, but I was agreeing with an earlier post - the winches are too small on most boats these days!
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Old 17-12-2014, 12:32   #49
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
Sorry - didn't mean to confuse anyone. Too wordy, perhaps. Allow me to precis:

IMO the new Farr-designed Vision 46 would not make a good offshore boat, as both the cockpit and saloon are too wide.

IMO the older J&J-designed Vision 44 does make a reasonable offshore boat. Else I wouldn't have persevered for over 7 years and 20,000 nm of offshore cruising in one.

Hope that clears things up?
That does not make any sense to me. Do you mean that the Oyster 625 is not an offshore boat?

It has a bigger saloon and very few hand holds, but both the Oyster and the Vision 46 has a better working galley than the Vision 44 (below).






I agree that your boat has more handholds (and a worse galley) but saying that because of that the Vision 44 is an offshore boat and the Vision 46 isn't makes not any sense. Any dealer will be more than happy to put the hand holds where you need on the places you want to sell you the boat. Lot's of possibilities, including a wood or stainless still bar on the middle of the saloon, one in each side of the cabin. That is a minimum detail in what regards offshore ability and not the only one if you want to prepare that boat for extensive offshore sailing. Nothing difficult or that a dealer cannot handle.
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Old 17-12-2014, 12:36   #50
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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Yes, but I was agreeing with an earlier post - the winches are too small on most boats these days!
Yes, but the dealers can install you bigger ones. Many times they are an option. It all depends of the use you are going to give to the boat but I for sure would want most of the time bigger ones.
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Old 17-12-2014, 18:50   #51
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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Yes, but the dealers can install you bigger ones. Many times they are an option. It all depends of the use you are going to give to the boat but I for sure would want most of the time bigger ones.
True dat.

Depends on a lot of things - whether you're buying new, second hand, to a budget or not, intend racing, cruising offshore, etc, etc. I was just stating my opinion, in agreement with an earlier post, that most production boats undersize their winches. And blocks. And everything else they can manage that the buyer (or buyer's wife) won't notice or care about.

I wrote an article a few years ago for a sailing magazine on buying new v's second-hand. In it I quoted the financial director of Beneteau as saying (to paraphrase): "when we drop the price of the boat by 10% we double it's sales".

That says it all really...
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Old 17-12-2014, 19:32   #52
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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That does not make any sense to me. Do you mean that the Oyster 625 is not an offshore boat?

It has a bigger saloon and very few hand holds, but both the Oyster and the Vision 46 has a better working galley than the Vision 44 (below).

I agree that your boat has more handholds (and a worse galley) but saying that because of that the Vision 44 is an offshore boat and the Vision 46 isn't makes not any sense. Any dealer will be more than happy to put the hand holds where you need on the places you want to sell you the boat. Lot's of possibilities, including a wood or stainless still bar on the middle of the saloon, one in each side of the cabin. That is a minimum detail in what regards offshore ability and not the only one if you want to prepare that boat for extensive offshore sailing. Nothing difficult or that a dealer cannot handle.
Wow!

Don't want (or have the time) to get into a huge debate comparing the V44, V46 and the Oyster 625. Certainly not in absolutes. You're just leading me up the garden path there. Or down the rabbit-hole, can't decide which.

Just two points:

- The PO asked for input from anyone who had "live-aboard or cruised extensively on a Bavaria". I do and have, and just stepped off sailing the new V46 last weekend, so thought I should respond to balance the inevitable responses from people who 'knew someone who chartered one once' and the like.

- Lovely yacht, but yes, IMO the Oyster would be hard work offshore. Imagine life in that saloon at a 20 degree heel! Probably why the professional crew will be delivering from exotic location to exotic location, to be met there by the fly-in owners...

However, the thread invited general thoughts about the V46. Perhaps we should stick to that?
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Old 17-12-2014, 20:15   #53
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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True dat.

Depends on a lot of things - whether you're buying new, second hand, to a budget or not, intend racing, cruising offshore, etc, etc. I was just stating my opinion, in agreement with an earlier post, that most production boats undersize their winches. And blocks. And everything else they can manage that the buyer (or buyer's wife) won't notice or care about.

I wrote an article a few years ago for a sailing magazine on buying new v's second-hand. In it I quoted the financial director of Beneteau as saying (to paraphrase): "when we drop the price of the boat by 10% we double it's sales".

That says it all really...
Would you care to supply factual evidence that manufacturers are fitting undersized equipment such as winches and blocks. From the specs i have found, all equipment fitted is at or above the manufacturer's recommendation.

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Old 17-12-2014, 21:37   #54
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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Would you care to supply factual evidence that manufacturers are fitting undersized equipment such as winches and blocks. From the specs i have found, all equipment fitted is at or above the manufacturer's recommendation.
Nope. Although I'm sure there's 'factual evidence' out there if you want to find it.

Just my experience. eg the Bavaria agent up-spec'ed all the mainsheet blocks during commissioning of my Bavaria Vision 44 in 2007 without me even having to ask. He obviously felt (as did I) that the supplied blocks weren't up to the task.

I suspect few people who have bought a new production boat over the last decade have not had similar experiences. It's just more apparent on the larger yachts.

All IMHO of course...
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Old 23-01-2016, 15:44   #55
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

I ordered a Bavaria Vision 46 after test sailing it in Annapolis and seeing it at the Annapolis 2015 show. "Had" a Jeanneau and the quality of the Bavaria was superior with no creaking sole, better fit and finish. Plus, much faster with a Farr design. Winches are perfectly matched and upgraded to electric (all 5). Can't wait for late Aril 2016 delivery.

Before choosing, spoke to several other Vision 46 owners who all are very happy with their decision.
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Old 24-01-2016, 06:06   #56
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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I ordered a Bavaria Vision 46 after test sailing it in Annapolis and seeing it at the Annapolis 2015 show. "Had" a Jeanneau and the quality of the Bavaria was superior ....Plus, much faster with a Farr design. ...
I have no doubt your Bavaria Vision 46 is faster than your previous Jeanneau but putting things like that may induce some confusions. In fact, even if the Vision 46 is a relatively fast cruising sailboat the Jeanneau 469 is faster: The Vision 46 has a SA/D of 17.58 and a D/L of 162, the Jeanneau 469 has a SA/D of 19.40 and a D/L of 153.

Farr is a great designer but probably not better than Philippe Briand
Sailing Yachts – Naval Architecture | Philippe Briand - Naval Architecture and Yacht Design
Anyway none of the boats was designed as a performance cruiser even if the Jeanneau is closer to that.

Saying all that I do not mean that the jeanneau is superior to the Vision 46, I am even a bit partial towards the Bavaria since I had one that give me no problems at all and that, for the price, was a great boat.
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Old 24-01-2016, 06:15   #57
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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Would you care to supply factual evidence that manufacturers are fitting undersized equipment such as winches and blocks. From the specs i have found, all equipment fitted is at or above the manufacturer's recommendation. .
That is a matter of opinion and it depends also the way the boat is sailed but many manufactures offer as option an upgrade on winches and that should say something.

You can also make this experience: go to a boat show and have a look at the winch size on a Halberg Rassy, Najad or X yacht (cruising line) and then go to a similar sized Beneteau or Bavaria and compare sizes. Sail areas are probably the same.

That means that the more expensive sailboats have oversized winches or that the less expensive has undersized ones. What do you think more probable?
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Old 04-02-2016, 15:40   #58
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

I too sailed a Vison '46 at the fall Annapolis sailboat show. The folks at Bavaria are great people! My intention was cruising and passages and ultimately even though I liked the way it sailed I had to rule out the Vision on several important grounds.

1) my 5'2" girlfriend couldn't reach the only handholds that were all in the ceiling
2) the cost of outfitting a new boat to approximate what I felt I needed for crushing was prohibitive (much easier to buy a boat with much of the outfitting already done/paid for). For example I believe the base Vision would have been over $350K and I estimated I would easily spent another $100K - 150K to add the items on my list that felt were absolutely necessary (including larger water tanks, spinnaker, water maker, more batteries, enclosed Bimini, Davits & Dingy, leisure furl main, solar etc).

I ended up purchasing (and falling in love with!) a 1998 Hylas '46 that had been beautifully maintained. And I can say without any reservations that it is a spectacular boat, that is extreemly well built and finished. And it also sails beautifully!!! I still ended up spending about $70K to add some of the key things I wanted but I also paid only $270K so I am still significantly ahead of the price that I would have paid for the Vision '46

These two boats are clearly apples and oranges but IMO there is no comparison if what you are looking for is a solid cruising boat.
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Old 05-02-2016, 07:04   #59
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

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I too sailed a Vison '46 at the fall Annapolis sailboat show. The folks at Bavaria are great people! My intention was cruising and passages and ultimately even though I liked the way it sailed I had to rule out the Vision on several important grounds.

1) my 5'2" girlfriend couldn't reach the only handholds that were all in the ceiling
2) the cost of outfitting a new boat to approximate what I felt I needed for crushing was prohibitive (much easier to buy a boat with much of the outfitting already done/paid for). For example I believe the base Vision would have been over $350K and I estimated I would easily spent another $100K - 150K to add the items on my list that felt were absolutely necessary (including larger water tanks, spinnaker, water maker, more batteries, enclosed Bimini, Davits & Dingy, leisure furl main, solar etc).

I ended up purchasing (and falling in love with!) a 1998 Hylas '46 that had been beautifully maintained. And I can say without any reservations that it is a spectacular boat, that is extreemly well built and finished. And it also sails beautifully!!! I still ended up spending about $70K to add some of the key things I wanted but I also paid only $270K so I am still significantly ahead of the price that I would have paid for the Vision '46

These two boats are clearly apples and oranges but IMO there is no comparison if what you are looking for is a solid cruising boat.

I went on the Hylas 46 that was at the Annapolis show for around $750K (around 2005); beautiful boat. Your right, apples and oranges. The Vision 46 is very modern which my wife loves, and it's new, which she insisted on. I, on the under hand, like your direction.

You are also right about the ceiling hand holds; they are way up there. But again, my wife is over 6' tall and she likes big hair. The 6'7" ceiling was as close to what she wanted as we could find.

They say: Happy wife, Happy life! Love her and my new boat!

Stuart
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Old 13-02-2016, 08:53   #60
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Re: Bavaria Vision 46 - Thoughts ?

Well,
We went on the Bavaria vision 46 at the Miami boat show. We now have another boat on the list. We really liked the off-set door, it allowed a island for the kitchen . I was impressed with the sub flooring, there was a huge amount of space under the floor. it had hand rails all over the boat and 2 very big rails down the middle The Show boat had the 2 beds to the ports and the storage thru the bathroom starboard. This has to be one of the best storage set ups I’ve seen. For a live aboard we are always looking for extra space. We really like the separate shower and bathrooms I thought the 1 Lewmar alum. halyard winch (50) and 2 Lewmar alum. genoa winches (55) seemed a good size. Was really surprises how big the cockpit was. plenty of room. we spent over a hour going over the boat. One of the issues we did see was the dealers are only 2 and on the eastern us. The show price was really good.
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