Advice on Circumnavigation Vessel

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Mary Flower

Here is what Walt Schulz of Shannon Yachts has to say on the subject:
"The side decks on serious offshore boats should offer ample space from the trunk cabin outboard to the toe rail, double lifelines, and 30" tall stainless steel stanchions. Mast stays and genoa tracks should be positioned outboard at the toe rail. This is a significant safety difference between a Shannon and the typical combination racer/cruiser. Going forward at night or in bad weather on a boat with shrouds and genoa tracks right in the middle of the side decks can be difficult and hazardous. The one or two degrees improvement in windward performance that inboard shrouds and tracks may provide simply does not warrant this liability. Accepting the premise that safety should be foremost, the side decks on an offshore boat must allow an unobstructed passage from the cockpit to the bow."

Something tells me you have never had to go forward on a heaving deck at 3am on pitch black night with 30 knots of wind blowing and the accompanying seas to deal with. Like I said earlier, the Wauqiez is a boat that is just lying in wait for the opportunity to toss you in the drink.

First let me say that a Shannon is an excellent boat and agree that an offshore boat should allow "safe" passage to the bow.

However, I do not agree that any boat with inboard shrouds and/or tracks is is inherently unsafe. And yes I have had to make that trip at 3 am on a small boat in considerable more than 30 kts. I have found that even boats with shrouds on the outside of the hull, when heeled over you still have to duck under them.

[El Pinguino]

Not only do I have inboard chainplates.... I also have alloy staunchions..... looks like I'm in big trouble.

[Mary Flower]

Originally Posted by skipmac

First let me say that a Shannon is an excellent boat and agree that an offshore boat should allow "safe" passage to the bow.

However, I do not agree that any boat with inboard shrouds and/or tracks is is inherently unsafe. And yes I have had to make that trip at 3 am on a small boat in considerable more than 30 kts. I have found that even boats with shrouds on the outside of the hull, when heeled over you still have to duck under them.

How about "less safe"? A deck layout that places obstacles in the way of one's passage forward would seem to be, by definition, less safe than one that doesn't. Given the choice, I would opt for the safer arrangement.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Mary Flower

How about "less safe"? A deck layout that places obstacles in the way of one's passage forward would seem to be, by definition, less safe than one that doesn't. Given the choice, I would opt for the safer arrangement.

Everything in a boat is a compromise.
Less safe still can be safe enough. If the boat is safe enough, strong enough and comfy enough, and within your budget, then it's the right boat.

It's all about compromise, and the result is that there are lots of answers to the question of what makes a blue water boat.
In France for example the ultimate blue water yachts are made by Alubat, Fora Marine, Boreal, Garcia and Allures. Builders that are certainly worth looking at.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Mary Flower

How about "less safe"? A deck layout that places obstacles in the way of one's passage forward would seem to be, by definition, less safe than one that doesn't. Given the choice, I would opt for the safer arrangement.

I think KVB puts it well. All boats are a compromise. My main objection to the statement about inboard shrouds/tracks is that it ignores too many other factors if you just say inboard bad, outboard good. I read a comment once that was something like "absolute statements are absolutely wrong."

I would instead say look at each boat individually and certainly safe access to the foredeck is a factor. I have seen boats with outboard shrouds that had very narrow side decks or obstructions other than shrouds and tracks that impeded access and I have seen boats with inboard shrouds or tracks that I did not feel caused a problem at all going forward.

The potential obstruction would certainly be more of a problem on a smaller boat. However, on larger boats, or boats with a flush deck, or a small cabin trunk or just a well thought out installation of the tracks I would look at the complete package and not focus on one detail as the deciding factor.

So bottom line, proper placement of shrouds and tracks and foredack access is a factor in a safe offshore boats but don't focus too much on one detail and ignore the big picture.

[lifeofreilly57]

My only comment on deck salon boats is to have storm covers made for the huge ports, I've been given some pretty snooty answers from the sales wienies at boat shows when asking about that option.
I had the misfortune of signing up to sail a deck salon vessel from Bermuda, it never made it, the large ports were stoved in by a rogue wave, the captain then made a number of poor decisions which resulted in his demise, the first mate ended up in the water for 17 hours before being successfully rescued by the coast guard. The amateur crew stayed aboard (wise decision) and were later removed from the boat by the coast guard, it was still quite seaworthy at that point.
The vessel was equipped with storm covers for the large windows but the captain decided not to put them in place prior to the storm, that was his first mistake.
Deck salons are wonderful live aboard's if used on a good hull, I just suggest having storm covers for them if your looking to do long distance cruising. The put downs I've gotten from sales buttheads were not appreciated, the most common response was "we use tempered glass in our ports", great, tempered glass will still deform enough to pop out if hit with enough water weight. and force. Maybe it's because I come from an engineering background, maybe it's because I've been hit hard enough by waves to flatten me in the cockpit (and totally fill my sea boots, lets not even discuss cold sea water up the crack), maybe it's my total respect for the power of the sea, but I am not fully comfortable with HUGE openings in the deck of a boat, of course I don't suggest living in a dungeon either, just a little common sense goes a long way.
If you choose a deck salon, see about a set of storm covers.
My wife and I ended up with a center cockpit with normal ports, even though she loves the deck salon models we've looked at, it still has plenty of light down below, just more smaller ports. A bit of compromise between us.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

bI had the misfortune of signing up to sail a deck salon vessel from Bermuda, it never made it, the large ports were stoved in by a rogue wave, the captain then made a number of poor decisions which resulted in his demise, the first mate ended up in the water for 17 hours before being successfully rescued...

If I remember that one correctly it was a home built one-off boat wasn't it? Not a production boat from a normal production builder.

Mark

[donradcliffe]

Buy a boat which performs well and is a joy to sail. As a dinghy sailor you will regret being talked into buying a tank for safety's sake. Take a look at the PHRF ratings for relative performance, and you will probably want something that rates under 100.

The safety aspects are way over-rated--with today's weather forecasting and a bit of patience, you can even safely circumnavigate a catamaran.

Look at each interior from 2 aspects--first, can I easily move though it from handhold to handhold in a seaway, and second, where are 4 people going to sit comfortably.

Look at berths from two perspectives--first, where can you have fun at anchor with lots of ventilation, and second where can your crew rest at sea with minimal motion (smaller is better, best with your pillow 2/3's of the way aft) and stay dry.

I personally would avoid boats with big wrap-around windows--both from a safety standpoint and from the greenhouse effect in the tropics.

A good sailing boat doesn't need much fuel--70 gallons is fine, and over 100 is overkill. We got along fine with 100 gallons (800 pounds) of water for 2 people and a watermaker--even when it crapped out just out of Thailand on the way to the Med.

I'm partial, but I still think the best boat for the money is the mid-80's Beneteau First series designed by German Frers. I do like the Bene 473, but its quite a bit more expensive.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

My only comment on deck salon boats is to have storm covers made for the huge ports, I've been given some pretty snooty answers from the sales wienies at boat shows when asking about that option.
I had the misfortune of signing up to sail a deck salon vessel from Bermuda, it never made it, the large ports were stoved in by a rogue wave, the captain then made a number of poor decisions which resulted in his demise, the first mate ended up in the water for 17 hours before being successfully rescued by the coast guard. The amateur crew stayed aboard (wise decision) and were later removed from the boat by the coast guard, it was still quite seaworthy at that point.
The vessel was equipped with storm covers for the large windows but the captain decided not to put them in place prior to the storm, that was his first mistake.
Deck salons are wonderful live aboard's if used on a good hull, I just suggest having storm covers for them if your looking to do long distance cruising. The put downs I've gotten from sales buttheads were not appreciated, the most common response was "we use tempered glass in our ports", great, tempered glass will still deform enough to pop out if hit with enough water weight. and force. Maybe it's because I come from an engineering background, maybe it's because I've been hit hard enough by waves to flatten me in the cockpit (and totally fill my sea boots, lets not even discuss cold sea water up the crack), maybe it's my total respect for the power of the sea, but I am not fully comfortable with HUGE openings in the deck of a boat, of course I don't suggest living in a dungeon either, just a little common sense goes a long way.
If you choose a deck salon, see about a set of storm covers.
My wife and I ended up with a center cockpit with normal ports, even though she loves the deck salon models we've looked at, it still has plenty of light down below, just more smaller ports. A bit of compromise between us.

Sounds like a tough trip. Are you familiar with the Alden 58 Trashman that had a similar problem with large salon windows? In that case the boat ended up sinking and only 2 of the 5 crew survived.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

My only comment on deck salon boats is to have storm covers made for the huge ports.

What would you make these storm covers of? And how old you attach them? Looks like quite a challenge to make something that is strong enough to actually prove something...

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by YoloSF

Pardon me if I sound defensive, this is my favorite boat thus far, so I am... haha. I'm also playing devile's advocate here. You made some very valid points. My counterarguments on the water comment would be a watermaker, which was definitely going to be installed anyways. Fuel... you can always tie up cans for longer crossings, I agree that 225L isn't enough, but it doesn't seem terribly low though from what I've read.

What do you mean by the shrouds and jib tracks being placed inboard? As opposed to where?

What does concern me though is the SAD of 14. Where did you find this? I"m going to have to do a bit more research on this aspect.

Thanks for taking the time to back up your comments!

Ask anyone who has been out cruising for any length of time and they will tell you that watermakers are near or at the top of the list of things that break down far from home. Actually, 119 gallon capacity would be plenty for a couple, though adding one or two extra people would be problematic. In any case, I would not rely on a watermaker.

[sneuman]

I too have had a portlight (of moderate size) stove in by a breaking wave - in the same trip I was pooped by breaking waves on several occasions. As a result, I am not comfortable with either large ports or companionways that go down to the cockpit sole (luckily in that boat, mine didn't).

I think it's naive to assume bad weather can be avoided indefinitely while on longer passages. Forecasts, at best, are good for about 10 days -- after that, you take what you get. I'm not saying that one boat is better than another in those circumstances (though I have my personal opinions), but I do say that starting from the assumption that on passage it will be day after day of wine and roses doesn't jive with the tradition of forehandedness.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

What would you make these storm covers of? And how old you attach them? Looks like quite a challenge to make something that is strong enough to actually prove something...

The storm covers on a deck salon boat I delivered were made of half-inch lexan, and bolted over the permanent windows--better than nothing.

[barnakiel]

220k will buy you a fine cruising machine. I think I could find and outfit a fine 40' boat for half of that.

Stay clear of things like HR, Oysters, etc - they tend to be priced with a premium for their brand name. Many less marketed boatyards offer on par quality.

Part of the fun is actually knowing what you need rather than what you want and then finding a way of deciding on what are your must-haves vs. the nice-to-haves.

The market is very good right now and it does not look like prices are going to go much higher this year or next year. So take your time, find the right boat and go for it.

PS Think well about where you want to buy the boat as this will influence not only your immediate purchase cost but also the cost of post purchase storage, outfitting and repairs. Depending on where the boat is kept pre-race these costs will vary WILDLY.

Good luck,
b.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

PS Think well about where you want to buy the boat as this will influence not only your immediate purchase cost but also the cost of post purchase storage, outfitting and repairs. Depending on where the boat is kept pre-race these costs will vary WILDLY.

Good luck,
b.

Remember also that boats in the Northeast or Great Lakes are stored for more than half the year. A 20 year old boat in Maine has less than half the wear and tear of a 20 year old boat in Florida. Some of the best bargains are in the NE in the fall, when the owner is facing another winter of storage costs.