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Old 15-09-2019, 20:52   #1
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What is this called?

I have searched the internet and came up bust. I have found many "dual headstays" but all are described as dual stays running from mast to bow with separate anchor points on the bow. Most everything I have found described either twin hank on stays or twin rollers, both with only 2" or so spacing between them.
This is obviously two stays, but only single mounting position on deck (bowsprit in my case) and mast.
Does anyone know if there is a specific term or name for this setup or would it be considered under the generic term of twin stays?
I understand the twin stays fell out of favor during my youth, but I thought they had fallen out before '79.Click image for larger version

Name:	<a title=furler.jpeg Views: 699 Size: 98.4 KB ID: 199919" style="margin: 2px" />
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Old 15-09-2019, 21:47   #2
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Re: What is this called?

Is there the same triangular plate up at the masthead? I'd still call it dual headstays, and an interesting custom configuration to allow for hanking on a storm jib I presume, or to hank on a jib if the furler jams I suppose. I haven't seen it before, but I confess I haven't seen every thing yet. Whatever it is called I bet the word "hybrid" is in there somewhere.
I wonder if use of that plate maintains the equal tension on the stays on either tack? Seems like it should.... BUT what happens when you tighten the sheets, does it twist the whole thing so that stay in use moves aft? Without a swivel I don't see how that would last too long..
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Old 15-09-2019, 22:05   #3
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Re: What is this called?

Balanced dual headstays ?
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Old 15-09-2019, 22:54   #4
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Re: What is this called?

Term Definition
towing plate heavy triangular steel plate connected to the apex of the towing bridles to complete the towing arrangement; also known as flounder plate or fish plate
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Old 15-09-2019, 22:56   #5
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Re: What is this called?

my sister had that on her lapworth 36 they did a circumnavigation on. Twin head stays used for tradewind sailing. Never seen one with a curler on one side though.
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Old 15-09-2019, 23:21   #6
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Re: What is this called?

With that much spacing between the stays, there's bound to be a bit of torsional load when only one sail is deployed. Seems a tad risky, though a good idea otherwise.
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Old 16-09-2019, 07:12   #7
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Re: What is this called?

Don CL,
I don't have a clear picture of the top, but it is more like a bar, but same principle. I did not find any obvious signs of wear, stress, or fatigue cracks so I listed it under "things to look into when she gets home". There is airspace on the bottom shackle that allows or causes it to twist some and I don't know if that is normal, required, or needs to be corrected.
Previous owners had her and sailed her like this for many years. Nice assortment of hank on sails, so I believe they just rolled up the 100% furler and hanked on any specific condition sails.
Tradewind and DDW sailing is where this should shine but torsional twisting on the mast is a concern due to getting equal tension on both stays. I suspect this approach is an attempt to address that.
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Old 16-09-2019, 08:10   #8
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Re: What is this called?

RaymondR,
Thanks, helps knowing what the parts are called. The top connection is more like a neck yoke.
Chouliha,
Do you know if she had issues with it?
LongRange,
I understand torsional twisting is why twin headstay setups fell out of favor, but every picture I can find and every description is of two separate mounting points on the bow connections.

I've only had the opportunity to show the picture to one 'rigger' and his response was 'that's different', so I guess I just haven't found the right rigger yet.
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Old 16-09-2019, 08:28   #9
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Re: What is this called?

Way too many potential failure points. Clearly the perpetrator does not understand the KISS principle. One problem on a night passage with this rig would likely lead to a re-think.
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Old 16-09-2019, 08:43   #10
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Re: What is this called?

I would definitely add swivels top and bottom!!!

It is a idea I have thought about but not tried. I did talk to a sailsmaker about it and his view was that it would cause problems getting the stay tension high enough. Effectively each stay only has 1/2 the tension so total tension needs to be double then the back-stay tension needs to be doubled leading to a 4x increase in mast compression. In my case it would mean I can have the next sail up or down hanked on and do jib peels like you do with twin groove foils when racing.
Can you tell us how well it worked
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Old 16-09-2019, 08:54   #11
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Re: What is this called?

You might want to look closely at the Robett Perry design Saga 43 https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...43_4639-1.html
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Old 16-09-2019, 09:32   #12
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Re: What is this called?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
I would definitely add swivels top and bottom!!!

I am definitely trying to find a rigger familiar with this setup to address that concern. My thoughts are swivels should relieve stress. It appears to swivel at the mast, maybe there is an engineering method behind the madness I am not seeing.

Can you tell us how well it worked
I really wish I could answer that question. Best I can figure, I am such an awesome dude I just attract the wind (or maybe it's trying to keep me away?!). Everytime I try to sail, the wind just hits me dead on the nose. So far this boat hasn't proved different. From above Baltimore to the ICW in Norfolk it was dead into the wind. Late one evening we had engine drama and I quickly rolled her out and broad reached out of the channel area towards anchorable water, and she pulled us along 5+ knots. Not much of a test but we did 'sail'.
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Old 16-09-2019, 09:52   #13
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Re: What is this called?

I would replace this setup. You can see in the picture at the chain plate attachment that there is a twist. Combine this with some heavy loading and it is a failure point. There is a reason nobody has seen this setup before.
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Old 16-09-2019, 10:20   #14
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Re: What is this called?

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Originally Posted by cpisz View Post
I would replace this setup. You can see in the picture at the chain plate attachment that there is a twist. Combine this with some heavy loading and it is a failure point. There is a reason nobody has seen this setup before.
Visual inspection of that area didn't uncover any wear or signs of stress. It appears the allowance for movement might be the design. I would have thought a swivel would be better but I'm not a rigging engineer. As I said above I intend to find a rigger familiar with this type of design. It was semi popular way back when.

Edit: dual headstays were semi popular, not sure of this particular design
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Old 16-09-2019, 12:28   #15
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Re: What is this called?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Adeline View Post
LongRange,
I understand torsional twisting is why twin headstay setups fell out of favor, but every picture I can find and every description is of two separate mounting points on the bow connections.
I don't think your mast column sees any torsional load as a result of this setup. There is one attachment point on the bow, and (presumably) one on the mast near the top. The fact that the load is shared between two stays is of no consequence to the mast column.

However, the stainless strap connecting that steel triangle to the deck eye, and the pin through that eye are both getting torqued quite a bit when the sail is deployed. They also get torqued the other way when the hanked sail is raised by itself, and that back-and-forth bending motion is eventually going to work-harden the stainless and make it brittle.

Whether the result is a crack tomorrow or in twenty years is hard to predict.
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