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Old 17-09-2013, 01:16   #526
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Re: Twenty Knots

Yawn. Tacking duels to cover is so yesterday. I always preferred just sailing the machine. Tacking duels always reminds me of footballers running out the clock rather than running the ball down field.

I was so much for cat racing when Conner first introduced it in '88 but I had so despised him by then I rooted for Aust. I took a lot of heat for that but was glad for the outcome.

Maybe this had something to do that I was had been racing cats for 10 yrs by then, I don't know.
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Old 17-09-2013, 04:52   #527
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Re: Twenty Knots

[QUOTE=Richard5;1341951]Yawn. Tacking duels to cover is so yesterday. I always preferred just sailing the machine. Tacking duels always reminds me of footballers running out the clock rather than running the ball down field.
QUOTE]

What would you do if you had the slower boat like the Australians? The Black boat until that race had never been beaten. They were forced into that stategy and it was brilliant.

It didn't lose in the America's Cup either. The US Team even borrowed the boat of the team they beat , Young America, but still got hammered by the black boat. It was totally boring.
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Old 17-09-2013, 07:20   #528
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
So Mark, you may wish to 'forget the Australians' as NZ supporters but we are here mate, we are here!
Go ETNZ!!!

Cheers,
Mac
I wasn't "forgetting" the Aussies as a people - I was "forgetting" that they are breathing down the necks of the rest of us in this sport. Forgetting that is much better to me than the alternative of facing it...

Keep checking your grandson's toes - those Kiwi genes can kick in at any time!

Mark
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Old 17-09-2013, 07:31   #529
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Yawn. Tacking duels to cover is so yesterday. I always preferred just sailing the machine. Tacking duels always reminds me of footballers running out the clock rather than running the ball down field.

I was so much for cat racing when Conner first introduced it in '88 but I had so despised him by then I rooted for Aust. I took a lot of heat for that but was glad for the outcome.

Maybe this had something to do that I was had been racing cats for 10 yrs by then, I don't know.
I'm an old catamaran racer myself, but these America's Cup races with the monohulls can still get exciting: (from 2007)

There was also something about hammer and tongs being involved and a ding dong battle!!

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Old 17-09-2013, 07:58   #530
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Re: Twenty Knots

OK, in the interest of full disclosure, from a Yank who spends much of his time in Oz...

GO KIWIs!!

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Old 17-09-2013, 08:02   #531
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Re: Twenty Knots

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PS. Stop arguing with those who don't understand apparent wind and resultant stresses, you are wasting your intellect.
Just refer them to Gino Morrelli's interview on the AC72.
Mac
I didn't know about this interview - are you talking about the one in Sailing World two weeks ago?

There are some interesting tidbits in that interview that show some people here just don't know what they are talking about.

For example, Morelli had this to say on controlling costs: "I think the whole argument about money is a fallacy—every team will spend what they raise. We could make the boat half as big and Larry Ellison would spend just as much money. The team doesn’t get any smaller! We’re not controlling costs by controlling boats or people."

And this on the original intent of the America's Cup: "The America’s Cup is not about match racing. The America’s Cup is about building the fastest boat possible to get around the course. Match racing was really only an evolution of the 12-Metre and boats that go slow. You have to read the Deed of Gift to understand the intention of the America’s Cup.".

Also this regarding the purpose of the America's Cup from the beginning: "It was the space race of the time. That’s what the Cup is."

He implies that the whole 12 meter business was just a stuffy blip in the history by some controlling and unimaginative people that he seems very happy to see go away.

I will paraphrase what he says about the safety of these boats because his comments are spread around - basically, the design rule disallowed movable control surfaces on the rudders and lateral control of the boards. This was a political negotiation among the people involved as each tried to protect or deflect a perceived advantage. Morelli says the results were "...like giving us an airplane that could fly but with a dead stick".

To compensate, foiling these boats require extraordinary crew coordination and a blown jibe puts the boats a bit out of control. He states that a simple rule change on the rudder foils would make these much more stable and consistent machines.

For all of you who are rooting for TNZ because you think they will bring slow mono's back to the game - remember that Morelli and Melvin are TNZ's head design team. Morelli sees the next Cup event as the present foiling AC72 platform with soft rigs, rotating masts and fully battened sails. In other words, no different at all from this series, unless you are really focused on that wing as the biggest gripe.

Oh yeah, he did mention catamarans and Larry Ellison in that article, which is all the info some of you need...

Mark
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Old 17-09-2013, 08:16   #532
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pirate Re: Twenty Knots

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I've thought of that myself. For football (soccer in the US), you would recruit from countries that enjoy that as a national pastime. I have an automotive forum with members from NZ, and even though hot rods is the theme of my forum, there are sailing and America's Cup threads that the kiwis have started. So I have to assume that sailing is more entrenched in NZ, better sponsorship and yes, better sailors.

Maybe that is why a real sailing junkie like Laura Dekker has moved to NZ. She got a taste of the Camper team while in Cape Town and was invited to race with them.
Bad analogy... in the UK.... the %age of British players in the top League is pathetic... not much better with managers... and its the National Sport... could be why we suck in the World Cup...
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Old 17-09-2013, 08:22   #533
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Re: Twenty Knots

re. Morelli interview.
That would be the one Mark, sorry I neglected to put in a link...
America's Cup Interview: Gino Morrelli | Sailing World
Both parts are well worth a full read for those who appear quite confused about what the AC was and is, as opposed to wishful thinking.
No doubt there will be some who claim M&M have got it wrong and demand a more informed source..... whatever. LOL
As much as I love watching the wings, I think soft sails on foiling cats would be a very exciting development.
Cheers,
Mac
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Old 17-09-2013, 08:26   #534
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Re: Twenty Knots

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...as opposed to wishful thinking.
Embarrassing.

Mark
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Old 17-09-2013, 08:57   #535
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Re: Twenty Knots

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Embarrassing.

Mark
Na, I don't feel that at all and I was playing nice.
You did mention that M&M work for ETNZ, it is worth noting that they also played a big role in writing the design rules for this AC PRIOR to that.
They should have a very good idea of the big picture.
Cheers,
Mac
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Old 17-09-2013, 10:14   #536
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Re: Twenty Knots

There is an interesting article in the WSJ where Coutts confirms a lot of the speculation raised here (if you can look past the annoying lubber-speak (zig-zag? really?)):

So what happened?

Coutts said he was caught off-guard by how much faster the Kiwis were, especially upwind. "That was a big surprise," he said. Hindering the Oracle team, he said, was general inexperience sailing these yachts, plus a physical constraint with Oracle's boat.

One thing the Kiwis did better was balance the boats on L-shaped boards, which elevate one or both of the yacht's hulls out of the water. That reduces drag and increases speed. They were particularly more adept at that sailing upwind, when a yacht needs to zigzag.

When making these zigzag turns, New Zealand can elevate one of the boat's two hulls out of the water to reduce drag and keep speed high. On the same turns, Oracle was sailing with both hulls in the water, thus slowing down. They finally figured out how to do the same this weekend, when they won two of three races.

"We're sailing now with the bows of our boat out of the water," Coutts said. "We learned from them." He credited slight tweaks and training during off days for the improved handling.

But there is another advantage that Oracle can't replicate. New Zealand's yacht has a small sail in the front, called a jib, that is on a rolling track, so it automatically moves with the wind. The Oracle jib must be adjusted manually by two sailors, who would otherwise be cranking winches that could help the yacht adjust its main sail or elevate a hull out of the water.
The Oracle boat is built in a way that an automatically moving jib can't be added on short notice. "If we had a month, we'd be able to do it," Coutts said.

Coutts said that the Oracle team wasn't able to pick up on some of the Kiwi advantages because they developed them after end of the preliminary rounds and before the start of the finals. "They only started doing this late in the game," he said.

Oracle appears to have caught up. In the three races over the weekend, the boats appeared even, with Oracle perhaps a tad faster. "We can turn this around," Coutts said. But to retain the Cup—and for Coutts to retain his job—Oracle will have to win eight of the next nine races.
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Old 17-09-2013, 15:33   #537
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Batten down the hatches

Attention ALL AC teams and AC Race Mgt:
Now that the AC has canceled ALL its racing today due to the usual SF Bay winds, Please clear the Bay ASAP of ALL AC race vessels, AC "racing"boats and All other AC race assets.

The local RECREATIONAL sailors would like to resume enjoying the wonderful sailing conditions throughout the Bay including the abandoned race course.

"We sometimes see kids in Optis or small dinghies out in conditions that keep the best sailors in the world at the dock instead of racing" Latitude 38 9/13 AC article"

What if you saved up a few days of vacation + your hard earned $, flew long distance, paid big city expense $$ and excitedly looked forward to cheering your team on or just enjoying the competition?

Only 50% of scheduled races run in last 3 scheduled days
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Old 17-09-2013, 15:50   #538
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Re: Batten down the hatches

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Only 50% of scheduled races run in last 3 scheduled days
Disappointing to be sure, but this is hardly the first AC where races were canceled due to too much (or too little) wind.

Hey! my boat can easily handle those conditions! Why don't they race in PSC44's??? Not a good idea, you say? I agree.
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Old 17-09-2013, 16:46   #539
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Re: Batten down the hatches

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Attention ALL AC teams and AC Race Mgt:
Now that the AC has canceled ALL its racing today due to the usual SF Bay winds, Please clear the Bay ASAP of ALL AC race vessels, AC "racing"boats and All other AC race assets.

The local RECREATIONAL sailors would like to resume enjoying the wonderful sailing conditions throughout the Bay including the abandoned race course.

"We sometimes see kids in Optis or small dinghies out in conditions that keep the best sailors in the world at the dock instead of racing" Latitude 38 9/13 AC article"

What if you saved up a few days of vacation + your hard earned $, flew long distance, paid big city expense $$ and excitedly looked forward to cheering your team on or just enjoying the competition?

Only 50% of scheduled races run in last 3 scheduled days
This argument is getting kinda old. They explained it today, and it had a lot to do with the death of the crewman and the Coast Guard.

You saw the teams cruising around waiting in the 19-25 knot winds joking around and talking as if they were tied up dockside.

Those winds are really no big deal to the racers. It's just that someone has to be responsible for the event.

It was brought up earlier that some of the monohulls sailed away after the race was called and didn't even reef. So what?

I'm doubting they were going to hit 58 mph on their way in and possibly hurt someone. No, they were going to cruise on in at 4-9 knots while some aboard read or had a beer which is not quite the same as what goes on with the racers in total race mode.

Total race mode (for those of you that have never raced) means you do not care about anything but winning.
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Old 17-09-2013, 20:12   #540
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Re: Twenty Knots

What's getting old are canceled races.

You do not need 58mph / 40+kts, or even 20+ kts upwind to have close exciting races. But for those into microwave drag racing I'm sure NHRA replays can hold you until the SF wind drops.

Pls clear AC course there's an 8 yr old coming thru on his dinghy........
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