Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-08-2013, 18:50   #136
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
...They should change the name from The America's Cup to Ellison's Folly ...
+1
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 18:55   #137
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: Twenty Knots

The America's Cup currently makes as much sense and entertainment as the American Gun Laws... ZERO...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:03   #138
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
I'm as patriotic as the next guy but I gotta tell you, after watching the LVC finals (and all the semi-finals), I'm ready to root for New Zealand to win it all because I think they would choose a more "traditional" platform were the Cup races held on the open ocean down there next time around.

There is nothing about these boats or the way they race (aside from the start sequence) that I can relate to. They should change the name from The America's Cup to Ellison's Folly - that would make more sense to me. But then again, I'm an Old Frog.


They just got enamoured of clever design and lost track of the sailing a bit IMO.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:05   #139
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Again, these boats can't be sandbagged in the way you are thinking.
Dude, you need to learn a bit about racing, it would seem.

I'm the faculty advisor for a collegiate sailing team, one that competed in the nationals last year. One of the first things we have to teach our kids when they get to into team sailing is how to sandbag.

A good sailor can cause any boat to go slow. A great sailor can't be seen doing it.

It's just like throwing a change-up. They don't teach the change-up in little league, and they don't teach sandbagging at the beer-can level. But at the top levels....
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:14   #140
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Usually South Florida these days
Posts: 825
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Sheesh. Too much wind to race. $100,000,000 sailboats can't handle 20 knots?

Embarrassing.
Very embarrassing in my opinion. I've seen little 2-man Stars go out & race in a 60-boat mob in winds over 20 knots. You don't even want to know what the fanatics in the Farr 40's would be willing to race in. Some of those Farr 40 guys are hard core.
__________________
pbiJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:17   #141
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
. Some of those Farr 40 guys are hard core.
For sure. In the Farr 40 world, if you haven't been dismasted, you probably don't exist.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:29   #142
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Dude, you need to learn a bit about racing, it would seem.
Dude, you need to learn a bit about these specific boats. I just spent seven days with people directly involved with them - both design and sailing. They were not only collegiate competitors, they were olympic medalists and professional sailors and referee's.

I got a very surprising education about these boats their design and operation, the racing rules and their reasons, and the whole program in general, as well as the opportunity to spend days sailing on a racing tri at 40kts and an extreme 40 cat at 25kts. What I wrote is correct and not speculation and extrapolation from experience on an flying junior.

Yes, they can sandbag, and they did. I specifically said so. But they cannot sandbag like you teach your kids in the FJ's (or whatever they are sailing).

This difference off-wind is where they had trouble and stuffed their bows. These boats are difficult to sail - maybe the most difficult boats ever (besides the Flyin' Hawaiian). Even "sandbagging" one is on the edge at times.

The fact that you did not notice only proves the very point you tried to make about professionals. It is even more difficult to notice when you don't even understand the boat (and have a strong bias against them).

Did you see those boats when they were broke and unsailable? They were still doing 10-12kts with no jib and the wing stalled as much as possible! And there were people paying very close attention to operating a dead boat!

Before you make a hypothesis like this, you should ask yourself if you truly think they would not sandbag given how delicate these boats are and how quickly someone could be hurt or killed. They are professionals and not fools.

Really, you do not know what you are talking about here.

BTW, I was taught the change-up in Little League.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:34   #143
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
Very embarrassing in my opinion. I've seen little 2-man Stars go out & race in a 60-boat mob in winds over 20 knots. You don't even want to know what the fanatics in the Farr 40's would be willing to race in. Some of those Farr 40 guys are hard core.
Were you embarrassed when a mono broke and sank in 20kts of wind in an AC race? Were you embarrassed when the committee invoked 20kt wind limits then?

OK, you all win. I want the next AC to be in Westsail 32's in 35kt winds. On 20 mile courses 10 miles offshore. About time we got back to REAL sailing.

And I will forget that previous mono AC's had the same wind limits as these. And boats broke in the same wind speeds as these. That never happened...

If it involves multis or Ellison, it is bad no matter the facts or reality.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:40   #144
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Really, you do not know what you are talking about here.
Mark, this is the 6th time this thread you've expressed this opinion. However, you've admitted been wrong about fleet racing (vs match racing), F1 Racing (vs Indy Car racing), and sandbagging. You've also been spectacularly wrong about the build price of AC 72s.

Do yourself a favor. Find another thread where you still might have some credibility.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 19:59   #145
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

I misspoke when transposing "fleet" and "match" racing in a post and admitted it. Really? That's what you want to hang on?

I admitted I didn't know much about autoracing, but was only using it as an analogy. The analogy holds regardless in the points I was making. You decided to attack the details of the analogy rather than addressing any of the points I was trying to make. Not a single one did you address.

You made a single claim about the costs of the individual boats and provided zero evidence to back that up. I provided some data on it and asked you to provide evidence to back up your build price claim. You have so far declined.

You make many claims about the abilities of the boats, the designs, the crews and the people making the referee calls. I described exactly where and how my information and experience was gained. You cover your lack of such by telling me I have no credibility and telling me to leave this thread.

You have done nothing but make unsubstantiated claims and then deflect when challenged.

You got mad here when I say you do not know what you are talking about regarding these specific boats, but you don't provide any evidence that you do. Note that I never questioned your sailing knowledge, your racing acumen or anything else - just your knowledge of the details of these specific boats and the type of racing they are doing.

Instead, you resort to an ad hominem attack instead of stating your case.

Bad form.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 20:22   #146
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Usually South Florida these days
Posts: 825
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Were you embarrassed when a mono broke and sank in 20kts of wind in an AC race? Were you embarrassed when the committee invoked 20kt wind limits then?
I'm embarrassed that "professional" sailors in boats that have had many millions of dollars spent on their "superb" design & construction, are unable to sail in winds that I have successfully negotiated in a sunfish.

Please forgive me for appreciating the exploits of wooden boats & iron men. It would seem that these have now been replaced by a flash of plastic fantastic. Perhaps that is what the I-pad generation is hungering for, but it does not suit my personal tastes any better than a pair of droopy pants accented by a ball cap being worn sideways. You might be surprised to find that those would cause me equal embarrassment.
__________________
pbiJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 20:29   #147
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

So you posted a USA Today article that states the costs to build a boat may be upwards of $100 million. They don't know, they are guessing.

Here is a contrasting link that shows the costs much less: Americas Cup votes to extend deadline for building AC72's to lure more teams | Alameda Waterfront

Likewise, Wikipedia states that the cost of the entire challenge may reach $100 million: 2013 America's Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps the writer from USA Today, who probably doesn't know much about this, did a cursory search on Wikipedia for research and didn't understand?

So I have two links to your one. That doesn't mean much to me - I still don't think you have provided valid support for your thesis on this.

OK, one more: Oracle Team USA Capsizes Its Biggest, Baddest Boat | Playbook | Wired.com (BTW, a simple google search turns up only the USA Today article in your favor and pages of articles in mine on this).

You still haven't addressed any significant or relevant points.

Ad hominem attacks are a red flag...

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 20:30   #148
Registered User
 
Target9000's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans LA
Boat: 74 Westsail 32
Posts: 1,379
Re: Twenty Knots

You know it wouldn't be so bad if they were racing W32s. Even in 30kts the crews could be forced to cook a meal during the race and be judged on it when they return. You know, sort of FoodNetwork meets SailTV.
__________________
Let your heart tell you where to go, but let your brain tell you how to get there.

Sundowner Sails Again
Target9000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 20:34   #149
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,217
Images: 2
pirate Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
So you posted a USA Today article that states the costs to build a boat may be upwards of $100 million. They don't know, they are guessing.

Here is a contrasting link that shows the costs much less: Americas Cup votes to extend deadline for building AC72's to lure more teams | Alameda Waterfront

Likewise, Wikipedia states that the cost of the entire challenge may reach $100 million: 2013 America's Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps the writer from USA Today, who probably doesn't know much about this, did a cursory search on Wikipedia for research and didn't understand?

So I have two links to your one. That doesn't mean much to me - I still don't think you have provided valid support for your thesis on this.

OK, one more: Oracle Team USA Capsizes Its Biggest, Baddest Boat | Playbook | Wired.com (BTW, a simple google search turns up only the USA Today article in your favor and pages of articles in mine on this).

You still haven't addressed any significant or relevant points.

Ad hominem attacks are a red flag...

Mark
All you've proved with the above is...
Dickheads exist outside of Congress and the Senate...
Note... no Ad Hominem there...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2013, 20:36   #150
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Twenty Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
I'm embarrassed that "professional" sailors in boats that have had many millions of dollars spent on their "superb" design & construction, are unable to sail in winds that I have successfully negotiated in a sunfish.

Please forgive me for appreciating the exploits of wooden boats & iron men. It would seem that these have now been replaced by a flash of plastic fantastic. Perhaps that is what the I-pad generation is hungering for, but it does not suit my personal tastes any better than a pair of droopy pants accented by a ball cap being worn sideways. You might be surprised to find that those would embarrass me as well.
And that is a very acceptable position to have. I seriously mean that.

Above, I was addressing your previous (probably unaware of) hypocrisy in wind speeds and AC racing.

I defend your position to not like these boats and this type of racing. They aren't for everyone. I don't want to watch slow boats slogging around on long offshore courses, but that is just a difference of preferences between us, and not facts.

I'm too old to even understand droopy pants and sideways caps, let alone be embarrassed by them!

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
knot, paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Death of the Ketch ? europaflyer Monohull Sailboats 496 23-12-2015 13:17
Six Year Refit . . . Is 3.5 Knots Under Power Too Slow ? akio.kanemoto Propellers & Drive Systems 50 20-08-2015 22:12
Twenty Boats Sunk or Damaged in Chicago Harbor Due to High Winds teneicm General Sailing Forum 1 26-10-2011 04:52
Cairns to Perth Part 1 Bartlettsrise Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 1 11-09-2011 00:38



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.