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Old 11-04-2012, 08:14   #331
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pirate Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
You don't think we're mature enough to have a reasonable conversation about the value of specific cruising tools without getting into a "my way is the best way" fight?

... yeah, you're probably right .

Thats a given....
The more folk have the more they feel the need to justify it in the name of 'Safety', 'Efficiancy' etc....
Lets face it... if your sitting in a remote anchorage on your 50+ foot boat with all the 'Bells and Whistles' that you've laid out $100's of 1000's for... and some guy sails in on 21ftr flying the same flag.... ****... he's just insulted you by waving your wasted money and years under your nose...
Bet he won't be invited to the evening Barbie....
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:04   #332
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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(...) if your sitting in a remote anchorage on your 50+ foot boat with all the 'Bells and Whistles' that you've laid out $100's of 1000's for... and some guy sails in on 21ftr flying the same flag.... ****... he's just insulted you by waving your wasted money and years under your nose...

Bet he won't be invited to the evening Barbie....
;-)

It is more perhaps related to what kind of people they are than to the size of boat they are sailing?

We have a 26' mono and we made great and lasting friendships with a number of 50+ bells and whistlers. Accidentally, we had to steer well clear of some small craft that we happened to meet along the way ...

!

barnie
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:50   #333
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

[QUOTE=s/v Beth;928626
The more knowledge you have, the greater the responsibility to others who don't have the knowledge or resources.[/QUOTE]

Please do not misunderstand me. Primitive cultures are not stupid, but they do not have the resources we have. I can fly/sail in to their home and be back to my home in a day. If my home is changed by a big event (hurricane, earthquake) I have the means to make it back the way I want it.
If a home (village) is changed by someone or something in the Amazon, the chances are it will stay changed. The only tribes I have seen get around this get up and move deeper into the jungle. So we, seeing both cultures, have to be careful not to enforce our culture on theirs.
I think highly intelligent people exist in every culture.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:19   #334
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I'm sure they do. And they have a lot more time to ponder than we do. When the power goes out, I'm heading for where they've never had power.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:16   #335
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Hmmm ... Less is more: more or less.
And one and one will always equal two, but if the sum should equal three; know that it is in the bank's favor.

Attachment to objects is the more. I think Bhudda simplified.

More to think about....
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:24   #336
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Hey Mike : I am also refitting a boat here in Thunder Bay. It's a large Hortsman tri. I've been working steady on it for the last three years, trying to make it safe and comfortable for my wife(Pat) and for our upcomming cruising life. I have an issue with mankind's addiction to fossil fuels, so I took out the diesal engine and installed a 48 volt dc motor from electric yacht. Motor is powered with 16 -12 volt agm's, 48 used solar panels and 2- D-400 wind generators. I have been very lucky in that I have become friend's with Gordon May and he has been a very important resource of Knowledge on this boat project. One more month and we are ready to put it in the water. Anyway Mike I am very interested learning more about your life's philosophy and if you could pm me your ph. no. we could meet I could show you my boat get your thoughts on it, and maybe you,Gordon and myself could sit down for an evening of beer talk. Dan
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Old 11-04-2012, 13:25   #337
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Originally Posted by tri-man View Post
Hey Mike : I am also refitting a boat here in Thunder Bay. It's a large Hortsman tri. I've been working steady on it for the last three years, trying to make it safe and comfortable for my wife(Pat) and for our upcomming cruising life. I have an issue with mankind's addiction to fossil fuels, so I took out the diesal engine and installed a 48 volt dc motor from electric yacht. Motor is powered with 16 -12 volt agm's, 48 used solar panels and 2- D-400 wind generators. I have been very lucky in that I have become friend's with Gordon May and he has been a very important resource of Knowledge on this boat project. One more month and we are ready to put it in the water. Anyway Mike I am very interested learning more about your life's philosophy and if you could pm me your ph. no. we could meet I could show you my boat get your thoughts on it, and maybe you,Gordon and myself could sit down for an evening of beer talk. Dan
It would be a great loss to this forum if you didnt include us in these discussions and pictures.

What makes this forum so great is not the information we all can take from it, but the information that we all in our different experiences and projects can contribute to it.

As a young "cf'er" can i humbly ask that you document your project and discussion for future sailors, preferably in a new thread, but please let us know in this thread the new thread you have created

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Old 11-04-2012, 14:01   #338
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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It would be a great loss to this forum if you didnt include us in these discussions and pictures.

What makes this forum so great is not the information we all can take from it, but the information that we all in our different experiences and projects can contribute to it.

As a young "cf'er" can i humbly ask that you document your project and discussion for future sailors, preferably in a new thread, but please let us know in this thread the new thread you have created

I'll second that. You would be surprised how many of us are following electric propulsion. Thanks ahead of time for your updates and pictures tri-man.
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Old 11-04-2012, 14:18   #339
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Newts shotguns are a perfect example of what I was talking about. How did they get the shotguns? They obviously do not have the technology to make them.

SO they are either given or traded for them, for what? Blowguns? Arts and crafts. Being a servant to someone with money and a lot of shotguns?

Now you have a tribe, obviously the guy with the shotguns can get food farther and more efficiently than the blowgun guys. Plus he doesn't have to spend time making it. Now his status in the village has gone from bottom to top. But he has to buy shells to keep gun working, that means more trade with outsiders. Now everyone goes out to buy a shotgun to keep even, and now no one makes blowguns, Now they are too dependant on western culture, and trade. Their original traditions disappear. The art of making a blowgun and sneaking up on prey is lost. Since they have no manufacturing plants, they are reduced to the big three to keep themselves in shotguns, (women, whiskey, labor).
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Old 11-04-2012, 14:26   #340
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I'm not saying savages are noble, nor am I saying all primitive cultures are good.

But my reading of various non-western cultures are like us they have had periods of violence, (mostly to repell invaders). Sometimes over shared resources like game, river access, etc... Their family units are not often monogamous, but except for the elite, (chief, best hunter, etc...), mostly a man can only afford one wife. The women generally are given to a man have babies, and raise children.

Cultures, (tribes), in constant strife usually don't survive hardships.

Their natural state is usually not catering to the vices of visiting westerners.
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Old 11-04-2012, 15:06   #341
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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This is all starting to sound like a Zen discussion on the nature of existence. As Mike and Conachair put us back on track- I'm going to go with it. Perhaps sailing simply is just learning to do without and be happy about it.

I have a number of books by Lynn and Larry. One of them lists all the stuff they put on the boat for cruising. What if I were to reproduce a list, and we see what we can do without and come up with an ultimate essentials list.
Anybody interested?
Count me in too....
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Old 11-04-2012, 15:09   #342
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

I'm in too, but your going to see how spoiled and soft I am.
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Old 11-04-2012, 16:23   #343
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Suz: look up Essential Cruisers list. We have been going at it now for a couple of days...
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Old 11-04-2012, 22:03   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl
Newts shotguns are a perfect example of what I was talking about. How did they get the shotguns? They obviously do not have the technology to make them.

SO they are either given or traded for them, for what? Blowguns? Arts and crafts. Being a servant to someone with money and a lot of shotguns?

Now you have a tribe, obviously the guy with the shotguns can get food farther and more efficiently than the blowgun guys. Plus he doesn't have to spend time making it. Now his status in the village has gone from bottom to top. But he has to buy shells to keep gun working, that means more trade with outsiders. Now everyone goes out to buy a shotgun to keep even, and now no one makes blowguns, Now they are too dependant on western culture, and trade. Their original traditions disappear. The art of making a blowgun and sneaking up on prey is lost. Since they have no manufacturing plants, they are reduced to the big three to keep themselves in shotguns, (women, whiskey, labor).
And just try to find whale oil and buggy whips in north america... The world is going to he11 in a handbasket.

I know I am going to say this wrong and get on the wrong side of this discussion...

Mahathir basically told the west to pound sand in regards to logging and polution. Someone mentioned the 3rd world getting their 100 years of polution and environmental destruction. That was Mahathir's point as well. However, the developing world should be able to help them leapfrog us in terms of renewable growth.

In regards to indigenous species, I think that we don't seek them out or seek to disturb their ways but if they come out of the jungle looking for shotguns and rum who are we to say no? It's pretty arrogant in my mind that we say, "no get your butts back in the trees", but my philosophy is pretty darn different than everyone else.

It starts with manage my footprint as small as practicable but dont forget I am at the top of the food chain. I'm gonna use what I think I need, responsibly.

The planet is strong. Way stronger than any of us. When she is ready, or when an astrological event happens, she will shake us off like fleas on a dogs back. Whatever species are left will take over. Yes maybe roaches for a while. We are arrogant thinking we can stop it or more importantly the will to work together as a species to solve the issues.

The world has gone from something like 5 billion to 7.5 billion in the last 50 years. There is lots of space left and lots of basic resources but the draining of fossil fuel is inevitable and with fracking, which I am concerned about but haven't seen the science for, big change is inevitable. Humans are the fossil fuel crackheads of the planet and we will destroy ourselves getting the last drops out.

Save the Planet? No need. The planet wil be here long after we are gone. Save ourselves? Don't see it happening...
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Old 11-04-2012, 22:24   #345
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

George Carlin was one of the great modern philosophers. Funny man too.




And I think this goes well with the current topic.

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