“STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

[boom23]

A drogue shouldn't stop, or pull a boat backwards. If it does, it's the wrong drogue for the boat and it can cause damage.
The wrong sea anchor can also cause unnecessary damage.

[DavefromNZ]

There is zero chance that a drogue can pull a boat backwards. The dynamics, including wind strength, would not permit this to happen.

[Bulawayo]

The Fiorentino statement is rather biased. Yes, the JSD requires a weight which is stated in the directions for use. I have used one of your devices, too. What you are overlooking is the ease of use of the JSD. It is straight forward to deploy and monitor. The simple act of going forward to check the parachute is potentially lethal. The reality is that both have advantages according to conditions. My choice, having experience of both under severe conditions - on the same vessel, is the JSD with the recommended weight at the end : I use my stern anchor and chain.

[Mr B]

I had a drogue on board but never used it,
In severe weather, I ran before the storm dragging my drive leg, Locked down,
I had the windward side Centreboard down as it made it easier on the self steering, and kept the boat in a straight line,

The Leeside Centre board digs in when sliding sideways and makes the boat tend to overturn sideways, So I never used the Leeside board down after that very scary moment,
70 degrees on the boat, beam on, is very scary, My self steering had dropped out,

I used the Genoa to maintain my speed between 5 and ten knots, I only used about a foot of it, maybe two feet at most, Main sail was strapped down tite,
Its operated from the cockpit, So I never went forwards at all, If I did, I had a chest harness on at all times connected to a jack line under the boom, So I never had to unclip it, It was short enough to stop me going over the side, No matter what happened,

I ran at about 30 degrees off the wave crests, Its a big ocean and plenty of open sea to run in, This was in the middle of the Coral Sea,
No idea on the wind strength as my wind instrument wasnt working, But the sea was about 7 metres,
Passing ship said it was force 6 in the morning, But it got a lot worse in the afternoon,
I was flat and level all the time, Very comfortable sailing,
The passing waves passed under me with out any problems, But mainly I just sailed along the side of one wave,

12 miles south of Port Maquarie heading to Port Maquarie in a head wind in 5 metre waves on the nose and the wind screaming, driving on the diesel, at 7 Knots,
Was a totally different story, It was slamming down on the waves, possibly getting to 45 degrees vertically on the front of the boat from level, and I was going backwards,
I was also on the Eastern Current,
So I gave that a miss as it would eventually smash some thing on the boat and I turned south and headed for port At Forster,
I was losing my dinghy davits, The welds had broken, Dinghy and backstays for the mast were all going over the transom, I had tied it all to the hand rails and cleats, But I was still losing it all,
I needed to get out of the ocean quick smart,
So I entered the Forster channel on a full out going tide and tied up at the wharfe at 2-30 - 3-00 AM, Under direction from the VRS at Forster,
Current VRS wind warnings at that time were for winds in excess of 35 Knots,

Really bad weather in a Cat, forget about where your going, Drag your motors, lock them down, It keeps you in a straight line and just run before the storm, The motors are not running,
Just use a very small part of your Jib or Genoa, keep your speed down to under 10 knots,
Go across the waves, sideways to the crests, About 30 degrees (approx) off the crests I have found is best, Its very easy to maintain a constant safe speed,
Im only 14 feet wide and 34 feet long, So a bigger Cat might sail differently,
Ive no idea on bigger Cats because Ive never sailed one,

Heading straight into the waves will smash your boat,
Straight down the waves, a following sea will sink you,

This works for me,
Cheers, Brian,

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Mr B

I had a drogue on board but never used it,
In severe weather, I ran before the storm dragging my drive leg, Locked down,
I had the windward side Centreboard down as it made it easier on the self steering, and kept the boat in a straight line,

The Leeside Centre board digs in when sliding sideways and makes the boat tend to overturn sideways, So I never used the Leeside board down after that very scary moment,
70 degrees on the boat, beam on, is very scary, My self steering had dropped out,

I used the Genoa to maintain my speed between 5 and ten knots, I only used about a foot of it, maybe two feet at most, Main sail was strapped down tite,
Its operated from the cockpit, So I never went forwards at all, If I did, I had a chest harness on at all times connected to a jack line under the boom, So I never had to unclip it, It was short enough to stop me going over the side, No matter what happened,

I ran at about 30 degrees off the wave crests, Its a big ocean and plenty of open sea to run in, This was in the middle of the Coral Sea,
No idea on the wind strength as my wind instrument wasnt working, But the sea was about 7 metres,
Passing ship said it was force 6 in the morning, But it got a lot worse in the afternoon,
I was flat and level all the time, Very comfortable sailing,
The passing waves passed under me with out any problems, But mainly I just sailed along the side of one wave,

12 miles south of Port Maquarie heading to Port Maquarie in a head wind in 5 metre waves on the nose and the wind screaming, driving on the diesel, at 7 Knots,
Was a totally different story, It was slamming down on the waves, possibly getting to 45 degrees vertically on the front of the boat from level, and I was going backwards,
I was also on the Eastern Current,
So I gave that a miss as it would eventually smash some thing on the boat and I turned south and headed for port At Forster,
I was losing my dinghy davits, The welds had broken, Dinghy and backstays for the mast were all going over the transom, I had tied it all to the hand rails and cleats, But I was still losing it all,
I needed to get out of the ocean quick smart,
So I entered the Forster channel on a full out going tide and tied up at the wharfe at 2-30 - 3-00 AM, Under direction from the VRS at Forster,
Current VRS wind warnings at that time were for winds in excess of 35 Knots,

Really bad weather in a Cat, forget about where your going, Drag your motors, lock them down, It keeps you in a straight line and just run before the storm, The motors are not running,
Just use a very small part of your Jib or Genoa, keep your speed down to under 10 knots,
Go across the waves, sideways to the crests, About 30 degrees (approx) off the crests I have found is best, Its very easy to maintain a constant safe speed,
Im only 14 feet wide and 34 feet long, So a bigger Cat might sail differently,
Ive no idea on bigger Cats because Ive never sailed one,

Heading straight into the waves will smash your boat,
Straight down the waves, a following sea will sink you,

This works for me,
Cheers, Brian,

great stuff.

just to clarify, you drove around 60 degrees from downwind direction?

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

great stuff.

just to clarify, you drove around 60 degrees from downwind direction?

No Idea on the following wind direction, I was just going down wind,
The wind thingy on the mast wasnt working, So wind direction and speed was looking at the flag flying on the middle spreader,
None of my instruments were working, My actual Speed came from the GPS,

30 degrees approx off the line of the tops of the wave crests, It was the safest way I could travel with out any drama's,
I could maintain an easy controllable speed, and the boat wasnt leaping around or getting fast on the sides of the waves,

I cant sail for ****, So it was a very big learning curve for me, My neck was on the line and being safe was the biggest factor,
But it worked very well, In some very bad weather, I never had any problems with it,

I spent six weeks in Fiji learning to sail it before I left and sailed it to Bundaberg, Single handed, Before that, I could not sail a vessel of any kind, Im a motor boat man,
A 14 foot Paper Tiger is not an Ocean going boat in any way, My only previous sailing experience,
We were all learners once, Hahahaha, 3000 Nmiles later, I think I can sail reasonably well, Well I can get me to where Im going with out drama's,

[arsenelupiga]

say one has waves coming from 2 directions say 20 deg and 330 deg. 20 deg waves are say bit larger on average, but both are large.

What should be the best strategy based on trigonometry:

Assuming 30 deg angle against crests method works okay in this storm, then least dangerous boat direction should be to turn boat to 140 deg This will keep larger waves at best angle on port side and the second largest basically behind.

If taking the other side, going 260 degrees then one is beam on second largest wave train and increased danger of flipping etc.

So having light warp should help for second train

anyone care to comment ?

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

The Fiorentino statement is rather biased. Yes, the JSD requires a weight which is stated in the directions for use. I have used one of your devices, too. What you are overlooking is the ease of use of the JSD. It is straight forward to deploy and monitor. The simple act of going forward to check the parachute is potentially lethal. The reality is that both have advantages according to conditions. My choice, having experience of both under severe conditions - on the same vessel, is the JSD with the recommended weight at the end : I use my stern anchor and chain.

The US Coast Guard report describes how the cone sea anchor, speed-limiting drogue, and series drogue all have advantages, but also disadvantages. Did you know there are some big advantages using a speed-limiting drogue compared to the series drogue? Take a look:

1. Some speed-limiting drogues are accepted by nearly every safety and race organization as an alternative emergency steering device. The series drogue is not. 



2. Speed-limiting drogues are more compact and less expensive compared to the series drogue.

3. A speed-limiting drogue usually requires a mooring cleat or winch as an anchoring point. The series drogue requires specialized fittings meaning additional holes will be drilled into the boat’s hull as recommended by the suppliers.

4. Rode from a speed-limiting drogue can be interchangeably used for ground tackle, mooring, and other applications. The series drogue can’t take the place of rode since the cones on the series drogue can easily catch or wrap around items and break. Something already reported in the forums.

5. Some speed-limiting drogue manufacturers don’t require weight, while others may require 10 to 20 pounds. According to the US Coast Guard report, the weight requirement for the series drogue is 35 to 50 pounds on average. This can be a lot of weight for some sailors to handle which may complicate deployment and retrieval. 


6. Some speed-limiting drogues are designed with less drag to moderately slow the boat. This helps reduce broaching and cockpit flooding when a sailor actively runs in a storm. A series drogue is designed with extra holding power so a sailor can passively wait out a storm. Unfortunately, slowing a boat too much with its stern facing the waves, increases the risk of cockpit flooding. This can be a problem with the series drogue as mentioned in the US Coast Guard report. And more recently, experienced by Randall during his figure 8 adventure. Randall reported cockpit flooding with the series drogue before the device broke apart. 


The above information, plus excerpts we provide from the US Coast Guard report are rarely posted in the forums or printed in articles by series drogue promoters. This is why we asked the US Coast Guard to review our Setting the Record Straight article to insure accuracy. We made every effort to show the positives and negatives of all the equipment actually tested in the 1987 report. Something never published until now: http://www.para-anchor.com/reports/y...drogue_article

We understand why this article may cause a backlash from the promoters of the series drogue. Especially, since we expose how the para-anchor was never tested in the 1987 US Coast Guard report.

[Bulawayo]

Thank you for your response, Fiorentino. I am of the opinion that when a manufacturer starts to criticise their competition then they have lost the plot. I have used both both products successfully, and also know which I prefer. My experience with a JSD is such that I ordered a custom unit a few years ago from Ace and I am delighted with it. However, I take issue with some rather broad statements that have been posted and comment in return:

1. Some speed-limiting drogues are accepted by nearly every safety and race organization as an alternative emergency steering device. The series drogue is not.
Response: This is not the subject matter and attempting to divert the discussion with 'some' and 'nearly' is inappropriately vague. The primary function is safety under survival conditions and not steering as an alternative….albeit it might be useful.

2. Speed-limiting drogues are more compact and less expensive compared to the series drogue.
Response: For me, safety comes without consideration to space or price. Ease of deployment means the device gets used. However, My Fiorintino parachute had much the same bulk as the JSD. Neither of which was especially bulky anyway. You get what you pay for.

3. A speed-limiting drogue usually requires a mooring cleat or winch as an anchoring point. The series drogue requires specialized fittings meaning additional holes will be drilled into the boat’s hull as recommended by the suppliers.
Response: So what exactly is your point? A very misleading statement. Any device performing such a function requires a substantial attachment point. Or two. Yes, I elected to provide dedicated attachment points. So what? To suggest to overlook this is potentially lethal and naïve info to follow.

4. Rode from a speed-limiting drogue can be interchangeably used for ground tackle, mooring, and other applications. The series drogue can’t take the place of rode since the cones on the series drogue can easily catch or wrap around items and break. Something already reported in the forums.
Response: Once again, so what? I like the fact that my JSD is dedicated to its purpose and has reduced expose to wear and tear and UV degradation etc. I dont want failure when its in use.

5. Some speed-limiting drogue manufacturers don’t require weight, while others may require 10 to 20 pounds. According to the US Coast Guard report, the weight requirement for the series drogue is 35 to 50 pounds on average. This can be a lot of weight for some sailors to handle which may complicate deployment and retrieval.
Response: Any one that believes this to be the criteria is clearly not understanding the issues. I have used both my Fiorentino parachute and my JSD in anger. I am fully aware of the shortfalls that I experienced with both. I will not forget crawling forward to check for chafe, or the feeling of knowing how vulnerable I felt as I had waves crash over me. I will not knock the chute as it performed as required. However, the JSD performed equally as well, and the boat felt safer. I felt safer. I was not not soaked with freezing sea water making my life safer. More importantly, it was massively easier to deploy, and with its dedicated attachment points we knew we had best opportunities available to us, with the least amount of risk, especially regarding regular checking of chafe. Having used both devices, I can firmly say that both offer a choice, but I will continue to favour, significantly, the JSD.


6. Some speed-limiting drogues are designed with less drag to moderately slow the boat. This helps reduce broaching and cockpit flooding when a sailor actively runs in a storm. A series drogue is designed with extra holding power so a sailor can passively wait out a storm. Unfortunately, slowing a boat too much with its stern facing the waves, increases the risk of cockpit flooding. This can be a problem with the series drogue as mentioned in the US Coast Guard report. And more recently, experienced by Randall during his figure 8 adventure. Randall reported cockpit flooding with the series drogue before the device broke apart.
I admit that I do not this particular incidence but somehow doubt that all the facts have been presented. Was this a manufactured JSD? Sized correctly? What is meant by cockpit flooding? Being pooped? How convenient to make such commentary without presenting all pertinent info. How about the reports of people who have had their brides chafe through with parachute anchors? Perhaps of being washed overboard whilst fighting to go forward to check for chafe? Nope…. This is all too vague and speculative. Additionally, so what if you do get pooped? If the vessel is properly prepared then a pooping should be handled.


The above information, plus excerpts we provide from the US Coast Guard report are rarely posted in the forums or printed in articles by series drogue promoters. This is why we asked the US Coast Guard to review our Setting the Record Straight article to insure accuracy. We made every effort to show the positives and negatives of all the equipment actually tested in the 1987 report. Something never published until now: http://www.para-anchor.com/reports/y...drogue_article
Response: Another misleading statement. This actually refers to, and I quote "Yachting World in its May 2014 article misquoted a 1987 US Coast Guard. (USCG) report, claiming a series drogue tested better than cone-style drogues and sea anchors. The USCG report actually stated how all of the devices prevented vessel capsize successfully and not one specific product as alleged by Yachting World"
Response: Which is precisely the point I have made, now and previously. Each has their benefit. To allude otherwise is a misrepresentation of information.


We understand why this article may cause a backlash from the promoters of the series drogue. Especially, since we expose how the para-anchor was never tested in the 1987 US Coast Guard report.
Response: Expose? There is no exposure .....you appear to suggest that some wrong doing has occurred or that their i a cover up! What you really mean is that your device was not tested.

To ensure clarity, I have zero connection with any manufacturer or supplier. I am a contented user of the JSD, and happy to share my experience of use.

[Fi2010]

Re: #69

Bulawayo,

The US Coast Guard reviewed our Setting the Record Straight article which can help boaters sort through the misinformation published about the series drogue, single element drogue and sea anchor: http://www.para-anchor.com/reports/y...drogue_article

For example, series drogue promoters continue to post misleading statements like, “Why the U.S. Coast Guard thinks the series drogue is better than a para-anchor in storms,” amongst other variations similar to tested best or better. These statements are inaccurate, because it implies endorsement, which can increase sales of a product under false pretense; especially if someone is tricked into thinking the US Coast Guard thinks or said one safety product is better than another.

We are asking promoters of the series drogue to consider removing the listed misleading information from future posts. Especially, since the para-anchor, including many new drogue designs, were never tested with the series drogue 31 years ago.


We did our best to answer your questions below:


1. If you’re going to quote the 1987 US Coast Guard report to discuss the advantages of the series drogue, then it’s only fair for others to also quote the report and show the advantages of other drogues to provide balance.

Actually, if a boat loses steering in a storm, then we’re talking about survival conditions. The last thing we want to do is abandon ship because of steering problems. Capt. Dave Houston shares his experience using a drogue then switching over to warps: http://www.para-anchor.com/reports/news_letter.pdf

2. Agreed, if something is easier to deploy it will likely be used. What’s easy of course is a matter of perspective depending on who you talk to. Sailors can watch circumnavigator Pam Wall on YouTube, who shares her thoughts while handling 7 storm drogues near her gorgeous cruising boat. Youtube Title - The Truth About Drogue Packing.

3. Not sure in what way it’s misleading to mention how the speed-limiting drogue is usually anchored to a cleat or winch. To answer your question, speed-limiting drogues usually place limited loading on equipment so sailors can use mooring cleats or a winch. Just happens to save boaters money. According to the suppliers, the series drogue requires specialized attachment points, because the series drogue can potentially place significant loading on the boat. This just happens to increase costs: Jordan Series Drogue - Design Loads and Attachments

4. Many sailors find it an advantage to use anchor rode interchangeably with a speed-limiting drogue and something else. This saves money and reduces storage space. In reference to UV and other exposure to wear, usually speed-limiting drogue owners have a dedicated storm drogue rode only used as a backup rode if they happen to lose their anchor rode, need it for a stern anchor or for a temporary tie off. How much traveling one does, whether or not its coastal or offshore, all factor into the equation.

5. Not sure what you mean by us not understanding the issues when it comes to the use of weight and drogues.Here’s a YouTube video demonstrating how weight does factor into the handling of storm drogues. Youtube Title - 7 Drogues at Sea - testing with and without chain.

6. Since you provide a link to the 1987 US Coast Guard report, we believed you understood the issue of cockpit flooding with the series drogue as mentioned in the report. Yes, it’s the same as getting pooped. Not everyone is familiar with the term pooped, hence we used a more descriptive term like cockpit flooding.

I’m sorry you believe we don’t understand the issues or provide all the pertinent information; it might be helpful to contact Randall to learn more about his cockpit flooding and loss of the series drogue.

Yes, rodes have chafed through, but with all of the drag devices, not just one type. This is why we developed simple solutions for reducing shock loads and chafe to para-anchors and storm drogues page 4: https://www.saltydawgsailing.org/wp-...-2017-V3-1.pdf


The Setting the Record Straight article shows the benefits of all the drogues in the 1987 US Coast Guard report. To insure there was no misleading statements or misrepresentation of information the US Coast Guard reviewed the article for accuracy.

None of the manufacturers’ para-anchors were tested in the 1987 US Coast Guard report. So why do series drogue promoters continue to post misleading statements in this thread and others like, “Why the U.S. Coast Guard thinks the series drogue is better than a para-anchor in storms,” amongst other variations similar to tested best, tested better?

Such statements are inaccurate and misleading. We hope you will consider removing the misleading information from future posts considering the para-anchor and many other drogue designs were never tested in the 31-year-old USCG report.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by double u

in the 80ies rtwing on our cat we had a parachute on board too, but I always (& still) wondered how we could possibly use it in conditions that would demand it's use...
in my mind the scenarios of impossibility would develop like this:
broad reaching or running before increasing winds, finally sails reduced to stormjib, then struck altogether, due to further windincrease boat again starting to surf wildly, wind by now howling:
possibility one: have the parachute made fast to the bows, line led around the boat, try streaming the pc off one quater while boat screaming down the waves & the time the exact moment to round up immediately befor the line comes taut? suicidal imho!
possibility two: rounding up & then dropping the pc? instant suicide!
scenario two: closehauled wind becomes too much for the boat, sails struck, boat drifting with winds just abaft the beam (thats how it probably would have drifted), & when the conditions get too much putting the pc into the water on the windward side? not have it blown all over the boat?
luckily it never came that far...

If you can lie ahull you can deploy a sea anchor.

Obviously, all the bow work should be done before you leave port. The anchor should be in the cockpit ready to go.

Towing a drogue is only possible if you have room to leeward. If not, a sea anchor could be the best option.

[Franziska]

Hey 44,

I agree, all needs to be prepared. Still the sea anchor needs enough space too.
And one should keep the influence of current and waterdepth in mind when deploying it.

The latter seems an issue easily overlooked.
100m rope in 50-75m depth might cause perhaps proplems as well.

In the North Sea for example its probably not clever to use the sea anchor. Shallow areas and plenty of shipping.

Btw. Fiorentino, my apologies for not thanking earlier for your answer I had asked for. Many thanks.

[Fuegomar]

Originally Posted by Franziska

The latter seems an issue easily overlooked.
100m rope in 50-75m depth might cause perhaps proplems as well.

In the North Sea for example its probably not clever to use the sea anchor. Shallow areas and plenty of shipping

In the gulf of Mexico the shallows can extend out to 60nm so I've had this concern too. However with a float on the 50 ft retrieval line, it should allow the para anchor to stay off the bottom with a 250 ft rode.

[Budawang]

Just got back from our trip out to Lord Howe Island in the Tasman sea in a Lavezzi 40. On the way out we encountered a 25-33 knot southerly with 3-4 metre swells. Seas were sometimes breaking and our decks were occasionally awash. Nothing too extreme but it became very difficult to make headway and a strong current, combined with the swell was pushing us away from Lord Howe. Our winning tactic was to have a third reefed main and a small amount of head sail, lash the helm hard over to windward in combination with running the windward engine at 1,500 rpm which prevented us going about. This allowed our cat to slowly move forward at 2 knots all night without making any leeway. With our bows pointing around 45 degrees into the seas we rode up over them with a minimum of crashing and banging. I think this strategy would have also worked for significantly worse conditions.

[double u]

...we'd better not see this post in the light of a "mono vs cat" discussion...