Serious Gun Question for EU Med

[atlantical]

I got stopped by French Coastguard they came aboard my boat, asked about weapons, they were annoyed that I had a loaded 30-06 aboard, they unloaded it, told me it couldn't be loaded in French waters, then they found I had no papers for the gun, no papers for the boat, no insurance, no yachts master or captains certificate, it made there day, they were so annoyed. They told me they were going to take the gun as I was going to enter a french port, told me I would have to pick it up on my way out. I told them change of plans, not going into a French port now, with that, they gave me back the gun, tried to seal it in a locker but it wouldn't fit, so they just had to leave it in the cabin.

It probably would have been ok, had I some paperwork for the gun, and some paper work for the boat, they did say I could have stolen the boat. They also asked why no paperwork such as receipt for the gun, I didn't want to tell them, you don't get paperwork when you buy a gun out the trunk of a car in a bar carpark at midnight.

You may find that some places you have to hand it in, then pick it up when you are leaving, they do that in Bermuda.

[Biomed]

Hi Atlantical, I see that you are currently in Scotland. So am I. You did get off lightly with the French Coastguard. Quite possibly because you declared your rifle. And did not land there. Police Scotland are, in my personal experience, very accommodating, so are the UK Customs Officers. Both Services may have something to say about your loaded rifle you carry on board. If you have not done so already, I strongly recommend that you advise both services that you have the rifle and ammunition on board, and unsecured.
Then follow their instructions and recommendations to the letter. You did not state your Country of Citizenship, nor your boat's flag.
There is an earlier post from, it would seem, a Solicitor or Barrister, who then went on to serve on the Bench. He has seen it all, and then some, from all angles. Best advice applicable to you I have read. Think about what he said, and take heed. This is a country where Fair Play is a way of life, and live and let live is important. Abuse their kindness at your own peril, is all I can say. If the aforementioned Services get wind of your weapon, and do not permit you to have it on board, as is or at all, you will lose your freedom, your boat and a lot of money. And very likely no more Schengen visa's. Ditto risk for your crew, if you carry any.
If you hail from the USA, you bypassed the background check by, on your own version, buying the weapon out of a car booth at night at a pub. Another submission named US documentation required for the ( temporary) export of firearms. I don't know if you complied. Or if you may even be a prohibited or unfit person to have or buy a firearm there. If it is thought that you broke the Law here, all that will be checked out. If the rifle you bought was stolen or used in a crime, or you were unfit to buy it, there may be a welcoming committee from the US Authorities when you return. Unless your post was a hoax. Either way, not funny. If for real and an undeclared firearm on your boat, I suggest that your kind of people give our kind of people a bad name and burn up good will.
Personally, I wish such people would give us a very wide berth. Fair winds.

[hellosailor]

Even in the US, at those times and places where you are allowed to carry or transport a rifle, it is often illegal to transport it LOADED. The assumption is that if it is loaded, you are planning to use it, and unless you are a hunter in an area where hunting is allowed, in season, with the right license?

Yes, even here that will often make the authorities upset. Not all the time--but more often than not.

"That's my shark rifle" isn't good enough anymore.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Juho

...
From the US point of view people are allowed to defend themselves against criminals using guns. From the European perspective (in most countries?) guns are ok for hunting and sports, but private people can't get a licence for a gun for the purpose of shooting other people (that job is for the police and military forces only)...

In Great Britain, one can't defend one's self which might cause injury to the attacker.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...-uk-is-illegal

Wouldn't be surprised if most all of western Europe has similar limitations to self defense.

[atlantical]

Boats flag, USA, my nationality UK. I was told by the home office firearms division, that as a UK citizen, I could carry a bolt action rifle, they emphasized any bolt action rifle, they told me a pistol no way, self loading rifle no, then I explained about the boat flag, they told me on arrival in the UK with anything other than a bolt action rifle, it would be up to the discretion of customs and excise as to whether I got arrested or not.

I was also told that I could not remove the rifle from the boat in the UK without first applying for a license, the rifle stayed on the boat until I got a gun dealer down from Glasgow to take it off. He wouldn't pay me for it, as he knew that I had two choices leave it on the boat, or give it to him. He showed me his dealers license, and gave me a receipt for it.

I was told by the home office, that a bolt action rifle is legal on an ocean crossing yacht, as they appreciate sailors have to defend themselves, I was also told on entering the UK rifle becomes part of boats equipment.

[atlantical]

I covered it all in my book, "loose cannon on deck" its on Amazon.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by atlantical

Boats flag, USA, my nationality UK. I was told by the home office firearms division, that as a UK citizen, I could carry a bolt action rifle, they emphasized any bolt action rifle, they told me a pistol no way, self loading rifle no, then I explained about the boat flag, they told me on arrival in the UK with anything other than a bolt action rifle, it would be up to the discretion of customs and excise as to whether I got arrested or not.

I was also told that I could not remove the rifle from the boat in the UK without first applying for a license, the rifle stayed on the boat until I got a gun dealer down from Glasgow to take it off. He wouldn't pay me for it, as he knew that I had two choices leave it on the boat, or give it to him. He showed me his dealers license, and gave me a receipt for it.

I was told by the home office, that a bolt action rifle is legal on an ocean crossing yacht, as they appreciate sailors have to defend themselves, I was also told on entering the UK rifle becomes part of boats equipment.

also under the uk legislation,the rifle does not require a license if it is part of the ships equipment

6.51 No certificate is necessary to authorise the possession of firearms and ammunition subject
to section 1 of the 1968 Act on board ship as part of the ship’s equipment (section 13(1)(a)
of the 1968 Act).

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by markpierce

In Great Britain, one can't defend one's self which might cause injury to the attacker.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...-uk-is-illegal

Wouldn't be surprised if most all of western Europe has similar limitations to self defense.

Mark, sorry but that isn't true. In the UK you do have the right to use reasonable force defend yourself and your property. What you can't do is use unreasonable force, which is what Tony Martin the farmer did shooting and killing a burgler who was on his way out of the property having sighted the farmer with the gun. That wasn't reasonable force.

What is reasonable force? that is up to the CPS to decide if they want to prosecute and ultimately a court of your peers decide. The CPS, Civil Prosecution Service, bring the charges not the police in the UK. Another recent case involved a home owner using a knife to stab a burgler who broke into his house late at night. The decision was no case to answer.

Okay back to guns for sport in southern European countries, because that is the only reason to carry a shotgun I can think of.

[atlantical]

That was the exact law that Mr Bottomly of the home office fire arms division quoted me. Seems most yachties don't know about it. Robin Knox Johnson carried a .303 with him on his round the world voyage, he claims he used it to shoot a shark before he went to do a repair under his boat.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by atlantical

That was the exact law that Mr Bottomly of the home office fire arms division quoted me. Seems most yachties don't know about it. Robin Knox Johnson carried a .303 with him on his round the world voyage, he claims he used it to shoot a shark before he went to do a repair under his boat.

they do not advertise it much! being 1 paragraph in 271 pages of fairly draconian legislation,designed to keep guns out of the hands of the general population,yet still allow the landed gentry to posses almost any type of firearm

[Biomed]

Hi Atlantical! Home office guidance for firearms for protection on board of UK registered boats: only boats larger than 500t, and in specific waters, with serious regulations for crew handling those weapons. Also regulations for very pistols for UK registered yachts. I have no idea how you were legally entitled to buy a rifle and ammo out of a car boot in the US as a UK citizen. Be this as may. I needed an export permit when I wanted to buy a simple hunting scope in the US!!
When I declared my South African firearms to UK Customs, on arrival in Aberdeen, I had already notified them in advance of all the paperwork and my arrival details. They had a specialist Firearms Officer waiting for me to help process the declaration. Made copies of my SA licences, copy of the SA export permit, hunting credentials and passport. THEY took possession of all firearms, ammo and receipted them. Stored them for me free of charge, until my appointed firearms dealer collected them from Customs. When I was granted local licences, on the strength of my SA credentials and paperwork, which was very quick, I collected them from the dealer, who put the weapons through his registers. I set out the rest in my previous post. Please note: mine is a recreational vessel, and there is no such thing as firearms for protection as "ships equipment". Yours is, it seems, a US flagged vessel, but you are a UK citizen. My vessel WAS US flagged, but I had to re flag it when I bought her as I am not a US citizen or resident. When I visited the US I had to apply to the US BATF for an import permit for the guns on board. No such thing apparently as guns as ships equipment for foreign flagged, visiting, recreational vessels. Canada has procedures too, and issues permits to the likes of us on application against payment. No country in Europe I have visited, and that is most of them, accept my hunting firearms as ship's equipment, and I am not aware how they could be inventoried as such, particularly on a recreational vessel.
Again, no such thing as "protection or ship's equipment". To visit Mexico, required a visit to their Embassy, to apply for a permit well in advance, just to have the things locked up on board in transit. No "ship's equipment" exemption. I could not hand my firearms directly to a dealer in Scotland for safe keeping, on our arrival. They had to be properly declared and imported, go through Customs, and from them to the dealer. Customs were very helpful but very thorough in establishing that the guns were lawfully in my possession, and perused all documentation, and asked very politely for explanations of things that were new or not clear to them. Only when satisfied, did they accept them on my behalf, for safe keeping, until my licences were processed. This could not be done by the Police in advance, as the guns had to be in the country. That is my experience in the UK. Yours is at odds with that. Fair winds.

[Kenomac]

Lots of opinions so far, but not much regarding regulations for the countries I’ll be passing through.

I won’t be stopping in the UK, Scotland, Neatherlands or St. Maartin on my way to Italy.

How do the countries I’ll be passing through view my situation? I’ll have the Mossberg shotgun onboard, and no plans to leave the boat with the gun; no lengthy stays, so no way to “turn in the gun.” We’ll be constanty on the move until we reach the Adriatic. Surely, we can’t be the first boat to transport a hunting/sporting shotgun through the Mediterranean? What about the folks who compete in competitions?

Again... no pistols or rifles, just a pump action shotgun with a stock and pistol grip (pictured).

[Kenomac]

I’ll check on Monday with the NRA to find out if they have any information regarding obtaining a European Firearms permit.

Excellent information coming from Dockhead a few pages ago. Thanks

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Biomed

Hi Atlantical! Home office guidance for firearms for protection on board of UK registered boats: only boats larger than 500t, and in specific waters, with serious regulations for crew handling those weapons. Also regulations for very pistols for UK registered yachts. I have no idea how you were legally entitled to buy a rifle and ammo out of a car boot in the US as a UK citizen. Be this as may. I needed an export permit when I wanted to buy a simple hunting scope in the US!!
When I declared my South African firearms to UK Customs, on arrival in Aberdeen, I had already notified them in advance of all the paperwork and my arrival details. They had a specialist Firearms Officer waiting for me to help process the declaration. Made copies of my SA licences, copy of the SA export permit, hunting credentials and passport. THEY took possession of all firearms, ammo and receipted them. Stored them for me free of charge, until my appointed firearms dealer collected them from Customs. When I was granted local licences, on the strength of my SA credentials and paperwork, which was very quick, I collected them from the dealer, who put the weapons through his registers. I set out the rest in my previous post. Please note: mine is a recreational vessel, and there is no such thing as firearms for protection as "ships equipment". Yours is, it seems, a US flagged vessel, but you are a UK citizen. My vessel WAS US flagged, but I had to re flag it when I bought her as I am not a US citizen or resident. When I visited the US I had to apply to the US BATF for an import permit for the guns on board. No such thing apparently as guns as ships equipment for foreign flagged, visiting, recreational vessels. Canada has procedures too, and issues permits to the likes of us on application against payment. No country in Europe I have visited, and that is most of them, accept my hunting firearms as ship's equipment, and I am not aware how they could be inventoried as such, particularly on a recreational vessel.
Again, no such thing as "protection or ship's equipment". To visit Mexico, required a visit to their Embassy, to apply for a permit well in advance, just to have the things locked up on board in transit. No "ship's equipment" exemption. I could not hand my firearms directly to a dealer in Scotland for safe keeping, on our arrival. They had to be properly declared and imported, go through Customs, and from them to the dealer. Customs were very helpful but very thorough in establishing that the guns were lawfully in my possession, and perused all documentation, and asked very politely for explanations of things that were new or not clear to them. Only when satisfied, did they accept them on my behalf, for safe keeping, until my licences were processed. This could not be done by the Police in advance, as the guns had to be in the country. That is my experience in the UK. Yours is at odds with that. Fair winds.

definitly the law is clear if you import the firearms into the uk,and you do need to have a licence but if you are in transit. in a foreign vessel customs are obliged to put them in bond regardless of the size of the vessel.
i have never had a problem putting firearms in bond,anywhere on 2 circumnavigations neither was a licence required anywhere.

as a uk non res citizen and uk flagged yacht i chose not to bring my semi automatic rifle with 30 round mags, a bolt action rifle and automatic pistol ,as some of the weapons contravened various sections of the law in the uk.

instead left them in bond in gibraltar without any problems.

on arriving in the uk when customs boarded us in a routine check i showed the boarding officer my receipt for the firearms ,and his comment was that had i brought the bolt action rifle back they would have held it in bond untill such time that i had joined a gun club,gained a licence etc

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

How do the countries I’ll be passing through view my situation? I’ll have the Mossberg shotgun onboard, and no plans to leave the boat with the gun; no lengthy stays, so no way to “turn in the gun.” We’ll be constanty on the move until we reach the Adriatic. Surely, we can’t be the first boat to transport a hunting/sporting shotgun through the Mediterranean? What about the folks who compete in competitions?

Now Ken, I have a Mossburg 500 myself, with a folding stock so it would fit under the backseat of my little airplane.
However, these are clearly not for hunting or competition. Mine was for Bear when we flew the NWT in Canada. My four barrel grade 6 Browning skeet gun is clearly a competition gun, but I didn’t carry it to the NWT as it was not a good weapon for bear defense.
I don’t think I would try to declare it as a hunting or competition gun, I don’t think you will get much traction doing so.
I have no idea of a justification for it, it would be different if it were a four barrel set, or a hunting weapon.