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Old 04-09-2012, 07:38   #31
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

The thing I still don't like is how slack my Jackline becomes when wet. It tends to be a tripper when slack. When I am in anything but benign conditions (anchorage or bay) I have a strict PFD and harness policy. Anyone going forward must be clipped in.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:39   #32
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

This is not a tragedy--its a fitting end to a very successful life.The article reads

"Cabot, 69, a lifelong sailor, was on the final leg of a journey he and friends had pursued over the past seven summers on his sloop, Cielita, that had taken them from Nova Scotia through Greenland, Iceland, and Scotland to the coast of Norway, said Peter B. Ellis, a friend of Cabot’s for 40 years."

What it could have said was

"Cabot, 69, a lifelong sailor, was on the final leg of a journey he had pursued over the past seven decades. It was a journey that might have been prolonged a few years by the used of tethers, dry suits, personal beacons, or by simply staying home. That prolonged journey would have ended in hospitals, wheelchairs, and misery."

I salute him for his choices.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:42   #33
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

I have really considered not responding as I doubt those who are die hard tether folks could care less what the "1 hand" folks think.
But equating a safety harness on a small craft to a seat belt in a car is once again equating apples to oranges.
I do not like or use harnesses for very definite reasons, not just to be a macho idiot.
First and foremost, anytime a human being puts his faith in a piece of equipment, they have a feeling of security that could lead to less situational awareness. For instance; I know when I wear a motorcycle helmet I feel much more protected than I really am.
Secondly, it is hard enough to traverse a moving deck without having a strap or line hanging between one's legs and around the feet (by the way, this is where a car seat belt differs significantly from a harness; a seat belt is snug and NOT getting in the way) attached to the center of one's chest. Each time attention is directed to the clip(s) that means it is not directed to what is happening around you.
Thirdly, the tethers are usually not long enough to allow someone who has gone over the side to get aft of the boat, therefore being severely injured by the boat before the 2 or 3 strong persons (see post above) can rescue them. Whenever I have felt the need for a safety line (going out a bowsprit in heavy weather for instance), I have tied a line around myself and had another person tail it. Should I go over (which has not happened) the line is long enough to get me passed the stern, where I can be helped aboard a bit more easily than under the pounding bow.
If I have no tether, I am constantly aware of what water may be a danger to me. Though the saying is "one hand" trust me, I'll use both hands and legs and teeth to insure I remain aboard the boat. I am not an idiot; I do not want to go over the side. I have been doing this for a very, very long time (since before safety harnesses were invented for yachting) and I sincerely doubt that I've just been lucky.
If I were to wear all the safety equipment available to me each time the weather kicked up a bit, I'd probably not enjoy sailing very much. A safety harness, a PFD of some sort, a survival suit or dry suit, a GPS beacon, a helmet (as suggested by one poster!) etc. the list is endless and I'd have to be superman to move about in it all.
I'm not looking to die at sea, but I'm not so afraid of the ocean that I need all that stuff to go out there and cross one.
It all boils down to two words; situational awareness. Not safety gear.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:58   #34
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

Sad news, indeed. I never sailed with Ned, but I worked with him for many years. He was a soft spoken, extremely capable professional who was missed when he retired. As has been said, he died doing what he loved before age and infirmity took it away from him. Condolences to his family and RIP, Ned.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:00   #35
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

quote..."Cabot, 69, a lifelong sailor, was on the final leg of a journey he had pursued over the past seven decades. It was a journey that might have been prolonged a few years by the used of tethers, dry suits, personal beacons, or by simply staying home. That prolonged journey would have ended in hospitals, wheelchairs, and misery."

I salute him for his choices....unquote.


i hope when my time comes that i have the good fortune to have end of life while at sea.
rip
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:06   #36
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
My point is you cant make the jump if tethered correctly..

Get it. That kind of systematic testing could be done with a line running down the boat secured by a boat hitch before installing the jackline. Another really useful discussion for me!
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:57   #37
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
My point is you cant make the jump if tethered correctly..
I knew egg-zackly what your saying!! Still, I would walk to the edge and lean over just bearly touch'n the lines.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:04   #38
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

When to wear tethers is one of those topics on which even very experienced people have quite different opinions and approaches.

Even on the Farallones incident team, which had some vastly experienced sailors, we had a quite heated debate on what to say about tethers.

We just need to respect each other's perspective on this.

I have done some study of the root causes of MOB cases, and in offshore sailing there are three basic situations that account for most.

One is standing up (usually somewhere forward) and working with both hands. If you have to work with both hands its more stable to to sit or kneel on the deck.

Two is when a significant amount of solid water (wave) washes over the boat. It's hard to hold on even when you are expecting it, and impossible if taken by surprise.

Three is getting hit by the boom or spin pole. These folks are often unconscious when they go in the water.

I have specific length (just long enough to allow the necessary work at that location and no longer) tethers fixed to pad eyes at the mast, and inner and main headstays, and steering. So, I can wear a very light weight harness, without carrying a tether and always have just exactly the right length tether at these work stations.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:09   #39
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
I have really considered not responding as I doubt those who are die hard tether folks could care less what the "1 hand" folks think.
But equating a safety harness on a small craft to a seat belt in a car is once again equating apples to oranges.
I do not like or use harnesses for very definite reasons, not just to be a macho idiot.
First and foremost, anytime a human being puts his faith in a piece of equipment, they have a feeling of security that could lead to less situational awareness. For instance; I know when I wear a motorcycle helmet I feel much more protected than I really am.
Secondly, it is hard enough to traverse a moving deck without having a strap or line hanging between one's legs and around the feet (by the way, this is where a car seat belt differs significantly from a harness; a seat belt is snug and NOT getting in the way) attached to the center of one's chest. Each time attention is directed to the clip(s) that means it is not directed to what is happening around you.
Thirdly, the tethers are usually not long enough to allow someone who has gone over the side to get aft of the boat, therefore being severely injured by the boat before the 2 or 3 strong persons (see post above) can rescue them. Whenever I have felt the need for a safety line (going out a bowsprit in heavy weather for instance), I have tied a line around myself and had another person tail it. Should I go over (which has not happened) the line is long enough to get me passed the stern, where I can be helped aboard a bit more easily than under the pounding bow.
If I have no tether, I am constantly aware of what water may be a danger to me. Though the saying is "one hand" trust me, I'll use both hands and legs and teeth to insure I remain aboard the boat. I am not an idiot; I do not want to go over the side. I have been doing this for a very, very long time (since before safety harnesses were invented for yachting) and I sincerely doubt that I've just been lucky.
If I were to wear all the safety equipment available to me each time the weather kicked up a bit, I'd probably not enjoy sailing very much. A safety harness, a PFD of some sort, a survival suit or dry suit, a GPS beacon, a helmet (as suggested by one poster!) etc. the list is endless and I'd have to be superman to move about in it all.
I'm not looking to die at sea, but I'm not so afraid of the ocean that I need all that stuff to go out there and cross one.
It all boils down to two words; situational awareness. Not safety gear.

You make a very valid point. There are pros and cons to tethers. that's why I would really like to know if the helmsman was clipped in and if that contributed to him being "washed back aboard."

But yeah -- being dragged behind your boat isn't a pretty image at all.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:15   #40
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

Wet your jacklines before you rig them. This way all of the stretch is taken out before hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
The thing I still don't like is how slack my Jackline becomes when wet. It tends to be a tripper when slack. When I am in anything but benign conditions (anchorage or bay) I have a strict PFD and harness policy. Anyone going forward must be clipped in.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:49   #41
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

I knew this thread was going to end up being about tethers and jacklines instead of just shock, sadness and condolences.

I just knew it.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:58   #42
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Re: Sailor Lost in Knock Down

This summer my wife went overboard transiting for dink to dock, I may well have contributed but that is another matter.

The dock had just installed, and "tested", some fold over and pull down ladders. The test was to have someone walk around and make sure the ladders rotated into the water and telescoped.

But the Wife could not rotate the ladder from the water, and if she did it would likely have beaned her. I had a talk with the marina super about this, who appeared to be grateful for our random testing.

Point is, that unless you test it you don't really know how it will work.

I single hand, and have jack lines, but am very leary of them. I often think that they provide a false sense of security. I use a long an short tether and use the short tether on the jack line. At times I have done as Evans suggests and keep dedicated tethers at my pulpit that I have to remove to get out there, thus helping to assure I remember to put them on. I feel really stupid when I realize I was out there for a half hour untethered.

Still, with no one to drag me back aboard, it is all a mixed blessing.

I see no really, really good solutions.
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