Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-11-2014, 16:54   #451
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Rudder Failures

How is the weight of a PogO 30 keel?
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:02   #452
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No but you said that on the med sailors go from marina to marina and implied they don't anchor out. Most don't stay at marinas and stay on anchor. Now if you know that why you said otherwise?
A huge percentage yes, now maybe you can afirm that in Winter the coves and anchoring spots are also full of boats at anchor... yes no?
__________________

__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:10   #453
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,748
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Guys I think one of the problems in communication here is that Polux is a Med sailor and Med sailors are not cruisers the way we think of cruisers in say the South Pacific. In the Med you do see lots of boats like Polux posts pic's of, deep bulb keels,double rudders and all the other high performance goodies. Most Med sailors (Except for Kenomac and his buddies) go from marina to marina with the odd night anchored out. They motor more than they sail, hence the nick name "Motorterranean".There are tons of well equipped chandeliers and workmen in every port so its a completely different environment from having no marinas in most areas and every night on the hook and long multi day passages in between ports.
You need a boat that has been time tested and something that can be easily hauled without the complications of super deep bulb keels.
The Med is an area of great wealth and many boaters there have more money tied up in a high end inflatable than half the sailing visitors have in their boat fully equipped. Before you think I'm loosing it I have seen inflatables that are well over $150,000.00 The sailors in the south Pacific have to be much more self sufficient and it pays to have a simple boat with simple systems. While the Med is indeed filled with the many examples that Polux posts you would be lucky to see even one in the South Pacific.
And as far as using any stats from the ARC remember many of those boats load up to their eye teeth with diesel and motor anytime the boat speed gets below 5 knots. So you have a new production cruiser who motors half the time compared to an older boat that sails the whole distance. Using stats from the ARC is a complete waste. Using stats from a "real race" is a different thing altogether.
You are being plain dishonest here. You know perfectly well that even if your picture applies to some type of med sailors if you go to Greece and Turkey you will find that much more sailors stay on anchor than on marinas. In Greece the number of Marinas is very small compared with the number of boats sailing there.

Regarding motoring, yes, like everywhere you see charters motoring and there is a lot on the med but in what regards cruisers, everybody sails and one of the reasons the typical optimum boat for the med is a sharp boat, like the ones I posted is because on the med is dificult to sail upwind with that short type of waves and many times (out of the Aegean) there are variable and not very strong winds, so the boats are maximized for upwind sailing and light wind sailing. Compared with me, it is you that motor a lot on the med, simply because I, and those sharp boats, can sail with 4K wind while you will be sitting on the water.

Regarding anchoring and going to marinas, normally I go to 1 or 2 marinas on the season, that means more than 100 days at anchor, with some visits to small village ports for water or diesel.

Regarding being a Med sailor, I have been cruising on the last years on the med and I will do one more before I find out that I know all of it, but before that I cruised the Atlantic shores of Portugal and Spain, for many years.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:19   #454
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,748
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
A huge percentage yes, now maybe you can afirm that in Winter the coves and anchoring spots are also full of boats at anchor... yes no?
The Med in winter is quite hard. Very few cruise there on the winter. Only the ones that don't have the budget to have a house and a boat stay there on the boat and yes, most of time sheltered on a marina. The winds there on the winter can reach F11 and lesser but strong winds are frequent, besides it is cold in most places. What is normal for the ones that cruise on the med is to leave the boat on the hard or on the marina and to pass the winter with the family and get back in Spring. I believe that this will describe more than 95% of the ones that cruise the med.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:24   #455
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,748
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
How is the weight of a PogO 30 keel?
Why do you care? I showed to you a Pogo stability curve that is a much more effective tool to access stability.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:29   #456
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,913
Images: 1
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Why do you care? I showed to you a Pogo stability curve that is a much more effective tool to access stability.
Not knowing what the stability curve is, but do know that it is only one factor in determining suitability to task (all boats are compromise etc. etc.) the weight of the keel is a fact that is relevant.

I use this calculator when assessing a potential boat.

So, where can we determine the weight of the keel? Their website does not give that information.
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:40   #457
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Rudder Failures

HOW long ago did we stop taling 'bout rudders?
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:42   #458
Moderator Emeritus
 
Coops's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NSW.Australia
Boat: Sunmaid 20, John Welsford Navigator
Posts: 9,550
Re: Rudder Failures

Ages and pages ago.

Coops.
__________________
When somebody told me that I was delusional, I almost fell off of my unicorn.
Coops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:46   #459
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 38.1
Posts: 244
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Fellows when Polux gives you PHRF ratings and uses them to compare offshore boat speeds in the trades make sure to turn your skeptic meter up a little. PHRF ratings are based on a triangular course
A little digression, but this is not true. While PHRF handicaps are region specific, most PHRF boards handicap for typical overall performance focused primarily on windward/leward courses. No one runs triangle courses any more to speak of, and you'd have to look at each regions rules, but the regions with which I'm familiar do not handicap for triangle courses.

In Southern California a 3 number system is used: One rating for buoy (windward/leward) courses, one for random leg (mixture of anything and everything), and one for off wind courses (where at lest 2/3 of the race is expected to be offwind). Nor Cal is now similar. How you might apply those to cruising is up to you, but the RLC number would probably give you the best indicator of overall performance and OWC might be useful for the trades (if your trades are actually pretty uniform).

That said, PHRF always assumes an optimal setup in terms of weight and drag, and the full manufacturer specified sailplan, which may include a spinnaker. How the boat will perform in cruising trim, stuffed with stuff, and not flying a spinnaker will be wildly variable by boat. For example, the Outbound 44/46 has a PHRF rating in several regions. In cruising trim and use in the trades, I'd expect the Outbound to perform much closer to that PHRF handicap than my First 40.7 would in similar trim, weight, and use, if for no other reason than my boat would suffer more greatly from increased weight (of stuff) and lack of spinnaker than the Outbound would.

Also FYI the only Hawaii race using PHRF is Pacific Cup and they use the specific Nor Cal offwind rating. Trans Pac uses its own ratings.
__________________
gjorgensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 17:54   #460
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Why do you care? I showed to you a Pogo stability curve that is a much more effective tool to access stability.
Okey man, i take your maths for granted, now if i ground the pogo in a isolated reef and put the boat in the hard for keel replacement, how the cropp i know the weight of the keel?? the builder know the weight of the keel?
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 18:56   #461
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,748
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Not knowing what the stability curve is, but do know that it is only one factor in determining suitability to task (all boats are compromise etc. etc.) the weight of the keel is a fact that is relevant.

I use this calculator when assessing a potential boat.

So, where can we determine the weight of the keel? Their website does not give that information.
I can only say that you should learn something more about boat stability. I don't want to give you the impression to be rude but the data given by that calculator does mean nothing. A stability curve if you know how to read it will give you all the information you need.
For starting to understand what that curve means look here:
Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY - 1 : MISLEADING INFORMATION ABOUT STABILITY
Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY 1: MISLEADING BOATS - Hanse 345 / HR 342
I should have already completed those posts on stability with more, but i am lazy.
Don't believe me. Look at this thread and you will see that, confusing as a thread can be, the general drift goes on the same direction.
Understanding the Ratios
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 19:12   #462
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,748
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Okey man, i take your maths for granted, now if i ground the pogo in a isolated reef and put the boat in the hard for keel replacement, how the cropp i know the weight of the keel?? the builder know the weight of the keel?
What do you think? Don't you know that a stability curve cannot be made without all the data regarding the boat?
It would be hard going aground on a reef with a swing keel that will give you 1,05m of draft
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 19:42   #463
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
What do you think? Don't you know that a stability curve cannot be made without all the data regarding the boat?
It would be hard going aground on a reef with a swing keel that will give you 1,05m of draft
Pogo build the boat with a fixed keel and a lifting keel, so, yeah, if you ran aground with the fixed keel , just figúrate!!

By the way we still dont know the weight of the keel, could be a email to the builder solve the mistery???
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 20:45   #464
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,438
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
But they are use by cruisers to cruise, not to race. Pogo has a line of racing boats, those are for racing. of course not the same type of cruisers as you probably but a considerable number since they have all their production (30 and 12.50) bought for more than a year and that's hard to do in a time of crisis.

The concept of those boats lies in what was learned in 30 years developing solo racing boats (Pogo was a pioneer on that). The boats are fast, easy to sail, easy to go on autopilot, very stiff and very stable. Roll much less than a more normal type of boat. You should try one of those boats before talking about it, I am sure your opinion would change...not in what regarding being for you but in what regards to be a valid cruising option to more zen sailors.
Paulo, it seems that what you are saying is that the Pogoesque type of cruising boat is great for folks who like that sort of cruising... that's sort of a no-brainer IMO.

By your own definition, Med cruising isn't full time, but seasonal. The boats are put away for the winter, usually on the hard if I understand you correctly. This is a good opportunity for the owner to have the boats serviced and made whole again for the upcoming summer. No need to carry the sorts of spares and tools and clothes for all seasons and food and water and fuel for long periods away from support that many long term cruisers load their boats with.

This is my point: what you define as cruising fits the Pogo style boat quite well. I'm forced to wonder if those boats fit MY style of cruising. Perhaps they will... you don't seem to answer questions about how they sail when overloaded with cruising gear. You may argue that such loads are not really required, and that may be true... yet virtually all long term cruisers do overload their boats with such gear and supplies.

Please note that I am not saying they are bad boats or that one can not go cruising in them, at least in the seasonal Med style of cruising.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 21:01   #465
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,913
Images: 1
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I can only say that you should learn something more about boat stability. I don't want to give you the impression to be rude but the data given by that calculator does mean nothing. A stability curve if you know how to read it will give you all the information you need.
For starting to understand what that curve means look here:
Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY - 1 : MISLEADING INFORMATION ABOUT STABILITY
Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY 1: MISLEADING BOATS - Hanse 345 / HR 342
I should have already completed those posts on stability with more, but i am lazy.
Don't believe me. Look at this thread and you will see that, confusing as a thread can be, the general drift goes on the same direction.
Understanding the Ratios
I need to disagree with you that the stability curve is all one needs. It is only one element.

There are many things it does not address, the calculator at least touches on. The stability curve gives one similar information (actually more detailed) as the capsize ratio. It says nothing about the hull speed (easily otherwise extracted), sail area, or other data points that may enter in a purchasers decision.

To say that the stability curve is all one needs is really not correct. Perhaps for the information YOU are looking for and what you think is important, then OK, but most sailors make their decisions on both a variety of empirical data, and all sorts of soft decision points that can't be quantified. As example, your Pogo 30 has virtually no handholds. Off shore sailors would find that concerning.

So, no, a stability curve is not all one needs.
__________________

__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rudder

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hurth / ZF M15A Transmission Failures tomj Propellers & Drive Systems 138 06-05-2016 05:05
Maine Passage - Successes and failures, Moving On... skipgundlach General Sailing Forum 2 20-08-2008 09:20
Warning: Pre-1994 Crewfit PFD failures hellosailor Health, Safety & Related Gear 0 12-07-2006 19:41
Bilge Pump Failures ? GordMay The Sailor's Confessional 6 14-08-2003 02:23
Equipment Failures GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 2 31-03-2003 17:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.