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Old 05-11-2014, 14:19   #331
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Nautor Swan 44 MKII boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com

There are two Swan 44s on YW right now that you can start pouring your refit money into. The purchase price on each is $495K (2002) and $420K (2000) respectively. So according to the math above on the systems, etc., you'll need to change most everything out. It will be expensive. Maybe another $100K+ for a boat like this?

But, as you say, you'll be able to easily sell it in 10-15 years and make a tidy profit (though that seems really hard to believe).

In the mean time, I'm sure you will have a great sense of satisfaction. And I will definitely admire you. Probably for other reasons than you want to be admired, bit I will admire you.
I think Robert sailor was referring to the S&S Swan 44 like this one at 140k.

1973 Nautor SWAN 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 05-11-2014, 14:40   #332
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Re: Rudder Failures

Thanks CPA...Smacks reading skills are suspect from time to time.
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Old 05-11-2014, 14:43   #333
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Of course Hunter and Bavaria (and Beneteau, et. al.) can say the same. They FAR outsell Nauticats by a HUGE margin. Therefore, the general market respects them more. No question.

I dont know Mack, really, Hunters seem to have a crapy reputation, in fórums, in the net, in the bar, in marinas, boatyards, etc... now i dont know why , maybe you got the answer or a idea why they are so many people complaining about Hunters, Beneteau seems second in the list...


If you link good reputation to sales numbers , well good luck with that...

And,, i dont see many bad opinions about a Amel or a Swan or a Malo or a Hr ,, why??

About the Plexus link Mack, send a PM to Minaret because no matter what people with some experience in this matter say here is going to change your mind or give you a clear picture about the plexus thing, you are a litle stubborn man, Plexus alone in bulkhead tabbing is a no no,,, say with me NO NO.... you can mix fillets of plexus with fiberglass to secure bulkheads but plywood with poly varnish faces atached in the bottom with a ridiculous fillet of plexus is calling for troubles.. Say with me TROUBLES!!! any well marine surveyor marine engineer can tell you the same, ask Mr Perry mate... Cheers...
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:02   #334
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
...

This is definitely a form of "respect" in my book.
And a profitable respect The truth is that Beneteau would not be a leader in sales if it was not a respected brand and if his products were not of good quality. They have a very strong competition of other mass production boats and if their products didn't live to the owners expectattions the leadership would have passed rapidly to Bavaria, Jeanneau or Hanse.

Curiously one of the things that made Beneteau a leader has to do with the same thing that makes it so criticized by armchair sailors or owners or old designed boats: A continuous innovation, in the use of new materials (Plexus) and on the leadership in what regards boat design (in what regards mass production shipyards). They were the first to use the hull shape of the race solo boats (those beamy transoms with all beam pulled back) on cruising boats. off course some years after Hanse followed, Bavaria is following with the Vision line and Jeanneau followed recently on the smaller boats. Dufour remade all the GL line using them.

For many years they used the best NAs and after a brief period where their interiors where a bit less well designed than some of the competition, they had understood that they had to do as the others and commission them to the best interior boat designers, out of the house. It is done and the 38 is the first clear example of a big success in what regards that.

The next step will be the wing sail that will be soon available on Beneteau models. That one will certainly will lead some armchair sailors and conservative sailors to an apoplexy
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:03   #335
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by cpa View Post
I think Robert sailor was referring to the S&S Swan 44 like this one at 140k.

1973 Nautor SWAN 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
A 41 year old boat?!?!?!? Holy crap! It's WAY worse than I thought!

Good luck with that robs.
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:11   #336
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I dont know Mack, really, Hunters seem to have a crapy reputation, in fórums, in the net, in the bar, in marinas, boatyards, etc... now i dont know why , maybe you got the answer or a idea why they are so many people complaining about Hunters, Beneteau seems second in the list...
If I look at this thread as an example, I don't see "many people" complaining. I see a small few that are loud and relentless in their complaining - but without much fact to back it up. So lots of noise, but no real substance.
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:22   #337
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Re: Rudder Failures

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A 41 year old boat?!?!?!? Holy crap! It's WAY worse than I thought!

Good luck with that robs.
Have some respect LOL! That Swan has more quality left in her than most production builders put out in a year.
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:26   #338
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I dont know Mack, really, Hunters seem to have a crapy reputation, in fórums, in the net, in the bar, in marinas, boatyards, etc... now i dont know why , maybe you got the answer or a idea why they are so many people complaining about Hunters, Beneteau seems second in the list...
.
only on forums really because that is where experts live, just another example of how forums and life don't match

BTW - if 1 "expert" says something 1,000 time is that the same as 1,000 experts
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:28   #339
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
A 41 year old boat?!?!?!? Holy crap! It's WAY worse than I thought!
You are jumping to conclusions - that boat has been "fully fettled", it isn't one of those incompletely fettled things like your Hunter. I wouldn't go to sea unless I had a boat with a complete fettle.

Mark

(I'm no William Safire, but am I the only one who had to look up WTF "fettled" means? I still don't understand how it applies to a fiberglass boat…)
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:30   #340
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I agree on the need to refit/rebuild a production boat 8-10 years old if you are planning on using it for offshore sailing. Everything from sails to rigging to engine overhaul, radios, instruments, you name it will need to be replaced. If coastal cruising you can squeeze more life out of it. One of the reasons you see many cruisers choosing to refit an older quality boat is the residual value and the satisfaction of owning it. If you refit an older S&S Swan 44 for example you are sailing a boat that is admired by most knowledgeable sailors. The lines are timeless. Its a bit like owning an older Porsche, there is a high owners satisfaction in owning and using the boat. There are so many 8-10 year old Bavaria type boats from the charter fleets around that they have very little value and are a good buy but if you spend the money to refit them you will not get a dime of it back as there is no following for older production boats built down to a price. These boats will be unlikely candidates for a proper refit and will over time just be trash. A Swan is just one example but there are many boats that were very well built and if you do spend the time and money you will have a great boat because the basic hull structure is probably built to last indefinitely. After about 10-15 years even a new model is pretty much used up and your money would be far better spent buying an older high quality boat that has recently been refitted. Thats why many members here choose this route, for many its even fun and the satisfaction is high. When it comes time to sell and if your boat has a following it won't be that hard to sell it.
I agree with that, in what regards the Swan and the Porsche or Ferrari restoration is a good example. But Swan and the boats that deserve to be restored are just a very small portion of all the old boat: the more beautiful and more advanced boats of their time. There is satisfaction in owning and sailing or driving a car like that. A friend of mine bought in the States a 69 type E jaguar, a convertible one, brought it to Portugal and restored it to perfection. What a sensation to have a ride on that car and travel to the past days when you have to know how to drive to drive a sports car.

But of course, any owner of a beautiful antique sports car know that in terms of performance the old car has nothing to do with a modern sports car and the same happens with the old Swan. The pleasure that one takes with its use, like the pleasure one takes with the use of an old recovered swan has nothing to do with the car or boat performance but with nostalgia and owning a beautiful meaningful object. In many cases the full restoration of one of those cars or boats to new condition is not cheaper than buying a new boat. And you are right, people will look at the owners of those precious things with envy and respect and that is also part of the pleasure to own one: It gives you status.

Regarding refitting a 8 or 9 year Bavaria is not that expensive and normally the charter company makes part of that before sailing the boat. I have posted already about a Bavaria 44 bought to a charter company after about those years and that with a minimum refit made a circumnavigation by the northwest passage. In fact refitting a boat with about 8 or 9 year's old is probably the cheapest way to have a boat in great condition for a reasonable price. Nothing to do with a restoration of an old Swan where you have to be prepared to pay way more for it than what you have paid for the boat.
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:39   #341
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Re: Rudder Failures

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You are jumping to conclusions - that boat has been "fully fettled", it isn't one of those incompletely fettled things like your Hunter. I wouldn't go to sea unless I had a boat with a complete fettle.

Mark

(I'm no William Safire, but am I the only one who had to look up WTF "fettled" means? I still don't understand how it applies to a fiberglass boat…)
You're right. Seriously fettled. But you better replace that rudder...

Quote:
...factory installed larger size, skeg-mounted rudder with adequate longitudinal authority.
I don't think my Hunter ever allowed itself to be fettled at all. So that's a strike right there.

And my Hunter can't claim this:

Quote:
She’s a fully developed 12 volt boat. No microwave, no dry cleaning plant, no washer/dryer, but lots of grey poupon!
We got no mustard. Strike 2. I better stop before we sink.
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:44   #342
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You are jumping to conclusions - that boat has been "fully fettled", it isn't one of those incompletely fettled things like your Hunter. I wouldn't go to sea unless I had a boat with a complete fettle.

Mark

(I'm no William Safire, but am I the only one who had to look up WTF "fettled" means? I still don't understand how it applies to a fiberglass boat…)
Serious LOL .
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:47   #343
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Re: Rudder Failures

The more I look into this Plexus stuff, the more the "properly glassed tabbing" guys seem to be behind the reality curve...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...composites.pdf

This kind of makes sense to me...

Quote:
The main point is the fatigue resistance, because the whole boat flexes and must withstand the repeated shocks of the waves at sea. For this reason, it is better to use an adhesive that displays some flexibility: PUs, urethane -acrylates and modern methacrylates are all good in this respect, and much better than polyesters.

Substrate Tensile Strain to Failure (%) - Tensile Strength (ksi) - Young's Modulus (E) ksi
Polyester Resin, 2 - 9 - 450
ITW Plexus MA425, 120 - 3 - 45

Table 1: Comparison of tensile properties for plexus MA 425 and polyester resin used for the stringer assembly.
Hmm.

Another reason that old bluewater boat might actually be hiding far more danger than anyone realizes.
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Old 05-11-2014, 16:12   #344
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Re: Rudder Failures

Back on topic, I looked through the Blue Pearl thread and the news reports, etc.

If anyone is actually blaming that sinking on Plexus, after the groundings...the resulting rudder issues...the questionable quality of the repair work...the lack of a survey at purchase...etc. they're delusional. I think you'd be much, much more on point blaming the repair guys than Beneteau for that sinking.

Even NeilP seemed to agree on this point.
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Old 05-11-2014, 17:44   #345
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Re: Rudder Failures

smack and polux- you two are the stalwarts defending the marketing hype of the new production boats.
If quality is so high on these boats, why the iron keels? Why the plexus tabbed bulkheads? Why the thin resin rich laminate that Minaret has found time and again? Why the cheap ikea-esque furniture?
Again, I agree- they have found their niche, and their design brief is perfect- coastal cruising. That's what most (including me now) do with their boats. But why try to pretend they are better than they are?



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