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Old 16-01-2012, 22:19   #31
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

Hoist a sail? You've got to be kidding.







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Old 17-01-2012, 00:35   #32
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
If I threw the engine on every time I dipped below 4 knots I'd hardly ever go sailing.

+1

Every offshore passage averages around 5 and a bit knots, often (depending on latitute) drifting along at just a few knots. Bliss Spend a little money on learning more about weatherforecasting instead of diesel.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heavy-Weathe...4&sr=1-1-spell
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Old 17-01-2012, 01:54   #33
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
IMHO, sailboats make lousy motorboats and motorboats make lousy sailboats.
That depends on the boat.

Our previous boat -- a 37 foot long-keeler -- would motor at 6 knots at 2000 rpm in reasonably calm conditions. She was a mediocre motor boat. Which was a good thing, because she was a poor sailboat, at least, anytime the wind was ahead of the beam. So we motored a great deal, easily 75% of the time.

Our present boat is quite a good motorboat. She will knock out an effortless 8.5 knots at 2300 rpm in reasonably calm conditions, and the main engine, in a sealed, sound-proofed engine room, is barely audible. Like that she burns 6 to 8 liters an hour, and we have 680 liters on board, so we can motor for days if we want to.

But she is an even better sailboat, so we don't motor all that much. Out of 10 English Channel crossings, I've only done two of them under motor (three at night, one in a storm, all of those under sail). The two under motor were in dead calms on sunny, high-pressure days, and were very pleasant. One of those over 100 miles.

No one mentioned tides. In strongly tidal waters, like where we sail, you simply cannot afford to bob around in light wind making 3 or 4 knots, if the tide is against you or if you can't reach your destination before the tide turns. In many places around here, the tidal stream reaches 3 or 4 knots at springs, and even more. So I will usually put the motor on if the speed drops below 6 knots, unless the tide is favorable and we don't have too far to go.
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Old 17-01-2012, 02:08   #34
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by maxingout View Post

I know of many folks who just sat around waiting for wind, and then got clobbered when the next low pressure area came through their patch of ocean. I know of one yacht who lost their mast doing just that thing.

The cost of getting to a destination is more than diesel fuel. Motoring may be much less expensive in comparison to the cost of replacing broken gear and damaged sails in a storm that would have been avoidable if you had used the engine.

The cost of a new engine on my catamaran is about the same as a fancy new mainsail. Wind may be free, but sails, battens, batcars, masts, and rigging are not free. My number one goal while offshore is storm avoidance because storms are expensive and dangerous. My engine and diesel fuel make storm avoidance much easier.
Excellent points from someone who is actually out there doing it.
Thanks
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Old 17-01-2012, 02:55   #35
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxingout

I know of many folks who just sat around waiting for wind, and then got clobbered when the next low pressure area came through their patch of ocean. I know of one yacht who lost their mast doing just that thing.

The cost of getting to a destination is more than diesel fuel. Motoring may be much less expensive in comparison to the cost of replacing broken gear and damaged sails in a storm that would have been avoidable if you had used the engine.

The cost of a new engine on my catamaran is about the same as a fancy new mainsail. Wind may be free, but sails, battens, batcars, masts, and rigging are not free. My number one goal while offshore is storm avoidance because storms are expensive and dangerous. My engine and diesel fuel make storm avoidance much easier.

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Excellent points from someone who is actually out there doing it.
Thanks

Well, not quite sure I agree with that completely. There's quite a strong argument for saying that if you need to rely on your motor to run away from weather then your boat isn't strong enough and you maybe shouldn't be there in the first place.
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Old 17-01-2012, 03:42   #36
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Well, not quite sure I agree with that completely. There's quite a strong argument for saying that if you need to rely on your motor to run away from weather then your boat isn't strong enough and you maybe shouldn't be there in the first place.
I don't read it like that. I think he's just saying that he uses all the tools he has at hand to keep moving, rather than sit around waiting to get hit by weather. No matter how strong your boat is, nobody wants to get caught in a storm.
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Old 17-01-2012, 04:57   #37
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

Doesn't the decision to sail or motor (assuming you have sails) just come down to a .............. schedule?
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Old 17-01-2012, 05:13   #38
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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I don't read it like that. I think he's just saying that he uses all the tools he has at hand to keep moving, rather than sit around waiting to get hit by weather. No matter how strong your boat is, nobody wants to get caught in a storm.
True, no one will go hunting for heavy weather. Personally I think it's back to front, look to the boat first, sooner and later the engine will fail or you'll run out of diesel - maybe the point is don't think you can't *rely* on the engine to run away. The boat should be up to the job.

Of course as with anything to do with sailing it depends on a hundred and one different things. What the boat's like, skippers preferences and wallet size etc etc.
I can think of 2 examples onboard, going to Azores from Canaries, got stuck in the middle of a high so after a while got bored and motored half a day to find some wind then went to Madiera. Another one heading north from Carib, ridge of high pressure followed the boat for about 2 weeks all the way to38n, so motored some days, others didn't. In those lats you aren't going to get hit by a storm, just run out of books

Coastal whole different ball game when you need to get back to work on moday, if anyone with stastistical skills were to do a survey they may well find that in coastal sailing the biggest single cause of accidents is having a calendar onboard
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Old 17-01-2012, 05:15   #39
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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Doesn't the decision to sail or motor (assuming you have sails) just come down to a .............. schedule?
Dangerous things!!!! Even worse when you try to stick to them
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Old 17-01-2012, 07:21   #40
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

Miles from land ,if you expect your motor to get you out of the weather systems coming down the pike, you might be well served by doing some math.
Fronts, storms and almost any other nasty systems move faster than you will be able to in any sailboat. Can you make 25kts? Are you you sure of the direction of that you need for avoidance? Are you sure any revolving storm will not change direction once you make your move?
Do I turn on my motor if I think it will get me out of ANY trouble?
You Betcha! However,I try to use my motor as the LAST resort or as a very nice convenience. I NEVER expect it to be there to save my bacon.
All that said , I 'm embarrased to admit that I use my motor at way more than my theory states is necessary.
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Old 17-01-2012, 07:33   #41
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Doesn't the decision to sail or motor (assuming you have sails) just come down to a .............. schedule?
Oh, we're all on a schedule.

Retired people with two years of food on board and no one to see on shore, and nothing better to do than bob around in the middle of the ocean waiting for wind -- might be on a somewhat looser schedule than some of the rest of us.

But even they are not immortal.
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Old 17-01-2012, 08:12   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrohr
Miles from land ,if you expect your motor to get you out of the weather systems coming down the pike, you might be well served by doing some math.
Fronts, storms and almost any other nasty systems move faster than you will be able to in any sailboat. Can you make 25kts? Are you you sure of the direction of that you need for avoidance? Are you sure any revolving storm will not change direction once you make your move?
Do I turn on my motor if I think it will get me out of ANY trouble?
You Betcha! However,I try to use my motor as the LAST resort or as a very nice convenience. I NEVER expect it to be there to save my bacon.
All that said , I 'm embarrased to admit that I use my motor at way more than my theory states is necessary.
If you pull a weather fax down and can determine that by motoring X miles you will be further from the Center of a low than why wouldn't you? 50 miles can be the difference between 60 knot winds and 30 knot winds.

I think there are really two questions here, storm avoidance and over-reliance on motor power when there are light winds to make passage miles
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Old 17-01-2012, 14:45   #43
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

Re: above said about impossibility of getting out of a storm's way.

Here is my maths. (I assume some form of wx reporting system is available onboard: fax, radio, gribs, etc.):

A tropical system, say an Atlantic one on its E to W track, is a relatively small system, with relatively low advance speed. The vector is generally known and when the system is erratic it tends to be of lesser force. Now with a most basic NWS radiofax you will get an early warning, IMHO, at least 2 days in advance of a system becoming a threat at your location. Motoring 48 hours at 5 knots will move you roughly 250 Nm. With such systems, you are now in a safer place.

So, much as I will agree that one needs a very, very fast boat to get out of harm's way with an extratropical or subtropical system, I think with a sound engine and some wx equipment/skills, a boat can avoid a tropical system.

BTW If you look into BP blog from their Atlantic record attempt, you will find that in fact they had to slow down the boat to stay with the pressure. So, much as we are talking of a sailing singularity here, one CAN outrun a storm!

Cheers,
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Old 17-01-2012, 16:43   #44
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Well, not quite sure I agree with that completely. There's quite a strong argument for saying that if you need to rely on your motor to run away from weather then your boat isn't strong enough and you maybe shouldn't be there in the first place.
Really?
I think you will find Dave is saying motor when no wind
What has strength of vessel got to do with light air performance?

And what if you have no mast and sails?
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Old 17-01-2012, 18:47   #45
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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And what if you have no mast and sails?
I'll bite......row faster?
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