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Old 19-05-2016, 12:00   #16
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
I think he is a member of the forum, that or just another crazy Brit

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: smacksman

Is he really?
He was super experienced, but I can see a trip like that being relatively safe as it's mostly protected water, yet being immensely educational, lot to learn.
I'd imagine after a trip like that you would have a very much better idea of whats important and what isn't to have in a boat, and if you find out that is not what you want to do, you have either had a wonderful or terrible experience, but didn't spend your life savings.

For instance, much to my chagrin I found out that having a very good / reliable inboard Diesel to be far more important than what I though it would be.
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Old 19-05-2016, 12:02   #17
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

Herr Simon, Guten Tag! Yes, it is one of the most difficult decisions to make there is...what boat to put your money in. Even for crusty old sea dogs like many on hear it rarely is a solid bet.

If you are not a wealthy man...and few of us are...the Wharram cats are well designed and can be found all over this planet. Check out Jim Brown's website for some excellent articles about multihulls. His website is outrig.org. There are also James Woods designed cats. Simpson cats and many other cats. The large French and S. African cats are very pricy and very luxurious.

Every designed boat has its pluses and minuses. Boats that use outboards have the advantage of shallow water power, easy to work on, cheap repairs compared to inboard diesel, easy to get parts for all over the world, and light weight which is pretty important on multihulls. Their downside is the cavitation problems associated with the engine prop popping out of the water as the stern raises in swell. The fuel economy versus an inboard diesel is worse. The outboard motor can get some charge to the battery but nothing like what an inboard diesel can. They are noisy compared to a diesel. You are also using gasoline which is highly combustible versus diesel which isn't a safety factor. So, like I said early designs have pluses and minuses.

Speaking of toilets and things that go into toilets...many places will require that you do have a plumbed toilet. Some places in the world are very particular what you throw overboard. Keep that in mind.

There are just so many decisions to be made. There are so many ways to skin the deer...so to speak. Crew for yacht clubs that have racing fleets. Buy something small and sail the hell out of it. Buy large and learn as you go. You are doing the right thing in getting as much information as possible. Have fun and enjoy. IMO there is no better way to see the world...or cheeper...than on a boat. I am like you in the respect that I don't need a half million dollar boat with air conditioning and nav tools that make it look like the NASA lunar landing module. Keep us posted.
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Old 19-05-2016, 14:05   #18
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

People already commented on what kind of path to take to learn all the necessary skills. I'll comment only the boat choice for a round the world trip.

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Originally Posted by simonadventures View Post
  • Boat should sail 2 people/2 people and a kid
  • Simplicity with a focus on longterm minimization of cost are key - luxuries don't mean much to us, when this means sailing or not, e.g. we don't need a build-in toilet
It seems that you would be happy even with a boat less than 30' long. A fixed indoor toilet could however be nice when the weather gets rough.

Quote:
I'd definitely take an inboard motor. Better for rough weather. You need not use it much, but it is good to have one for whatever needs will emerge.

Quote:
  • Simple rig, only one mast to be sailed singlehanded, if necessary
One mast is a good and simple approach. Some people however prefer two masts for singlehanded sailing since smaller sails are easier to handle. Automated furling systems will help with large sails.

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  • Shallow draft, for beaching and ease of maintenance
You could beach a catamaran or a monohull with a folding keel. I can't see how shallow draft would be essential from maintenance point of view. Moderate draft would be nice in shallow waters. I would however optimize mostly for the oceans, and worry less about the shallow water capabilities.

Quote:
  • "Seaworthiness" as in the concept of watertight bulkheads and other safety measures
Seaworthiness is important for both comfort and safety.

Quote:
  • A "good value" used boat, budget rather lower 5 digit numbers, willing and able to do repairs and overhaul to a certain degree but a complete DIY build is out of question to to lack of (inexpensive) building space
Try to buy a boat that is not new, but that has been maintained well and is in good condition. Don't buy a boat that requires lots of work, since you will probably have a lot to do also with a boat that requires only "minor repairs".

My best example of a couple that has sailed the oceans with a small and not too expensive boat is Lealea (google "cruising lealea").
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Old 19-05-2016, 14:14   #19
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

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Originally Posted by simonadventures View Post

Basically I'm writing here to air some thoughts on my next-to-perfect boat get some feedback and hopefully some new ideas.

A[*]Simplicity with a focus on longterm minimization of cost are key - luxuries don't mean much to us, when this means sailing or not, e.g. we don't need a build-in toilet
It was all over for me after "next-to-perfect boat" includes "we don't need a build-in toilet".

But hey good luck on that RTW cruising.
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Old 20-05-2016, 04:29   #20
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

...& if you happen to follow the "go-Wharram"-advice the "RTW" will soon have taken care of itself...
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Old 20-05-2016, 05:40   #21
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

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Originally Posted by Manos1955 View Post
I got the perfect boat for you right here at the Greek Islands the famous westerly CENTAUR 26 draft 1 meter very well taken care of I can send you pics and video one mast build under Lloyd supervision extra good for family safety and single handed Fully equipped with AIS radar autopilot wind instruments fish finder and many solar panels for electricity
Something like this would tick most of the boxes except the WT bulkheads and no engine. It would be easy enough to rip out the engine in the future if you dont like it, and very handy to have while you find your feet.

Under the fwd bunk can be made watertight easily enough, and so can the lazarette, but these old girls are built pretty tough.

Look at some of James Baldwins modifications to Atom.
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Old 20-05-2016, 15:10   #22
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

....... a flat bottom is most unseaworthy........
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Old 20-05-2016, 22:55   #23
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising loop

Using this forum to gather info. , will relocate to FL. Gulf South when liveaboard , job and moorage line up. I will relocate from Seattle to say Port Charlotte , FL. Survey of course but is it possible to befriend or hire a proxy?? Tks. D
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Old 22-05-2016, 11:48   #24
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

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Originally Posted by simonadventures View Post
Hey all,

new here, not a sailor/cruiser yet, but planning to become one. I'm based in Germany which is not the best place to find what I am looking for, therefore I address the international community.

As I said, I'm not a sailor yet, though have invested a substantial amount of time into this from reading all kinds of books on ocean voyages, especially of the extremer kind, John Voss for example, or Robert Manry and Gerry Spiess, although small boat ocean crossings to prove something isn't exactly what I'm up to, my interest in this had been more or less armchair traveling and seeing what's possible.

Basically I'm writing here to air some thoughts on my next-to-perfect boat get some feedback and hopefully some new ideas.

Alright, so here comes some core-info:

  • Boat should sail 2 people/2 people and a kid
  • Simplicity with a focus on longterm minimization of cost are key - luxuries don't mean much to us, when this means sailing or not, e.g. we don't need a build-in toilet
  • Detachable Outboard motor, if motor at all
  • Simple rig, only one mast to be sailed singlehanded, if necessary
  • Shallow draft, for beaching and ease of maintenance
  • "Seaworthiness" as in the concept of watertight bulkheads and other safety measures
  • A "good value" used boat, budget rather lower 5 digit numbers, willing and able to do repairs and overhaul to a certain degree but a complete DIY build is out of question to to lack of (inexpensive) building space

All in all, my current position is that this rules out most monohulls with built-in engine, so I figured a Catamaran would be perfect except for the lack of one big cabin in smaller cats.

Alternatively, I stumbled upon the Bolger AS29 sharpie when I researched upscaled versions of Matt Layden's very interesting microcruiser designs which employ the concept of a flat bottom with chine runners making a keel obsolete.

So, long story short. I wonder what the community thinks of all this ...

Cheers!
you should read "seaworthiness the forgotten factor". that might alter some of your ideas a bit.

and, you definitely want a head on board. what are you going to do when you are out far enough not to be able to make a mad dash back to port and your wife or child needs to take a serious number two? you certainly won't be very popular if you tell your wife to hang her butt over the rail and do her business over the side. point to ponder. simplicity is great but, some things you need.
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Old 22-05-2016, 13:03   #25
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

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Originally Posted by simonadventures View Post

(...)

So, long story short. I wonder what the community thinks of all this ...

Cheers!
Hey Simon, Guten Tag!

Long story short, you have created a pretty difficult (because varied) list of choices that gets me short of ideas on what boat is best for you.

Perhaps at a point you will want to rewrite your list along the lines of what you want to do with the boat rather than a list of actual features of the boat.

So this is only one voice, perhaps someone in the community is in a setting similar to yours and will have a more precise vision of what boats might meet your requirements.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 24-05-2016, 02:03   #26
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

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Or... Google up Webb Chiles. Currently on his 6th circumnavigation in a Moore 24. Chiles' choice of vessel makes the Pardey's boats look like 50' yachts. Take a look at the other boats he has sailed. They will fire up the armchair adventurer in you. You can go around in anything. And believe me, I've seen some of the "anythings" that are out here and I do mean anything. But... before your armchair dreams get too specific, follow the advice already given and just get something cheap to learn on. You would not be the first dreamer turned doer that realized... "Man, I don't wanna do this after all!" Boat yards are already too full of those broken dreams. I wish you good luck in your venture!
Webb Chiles rings a bell. Of course you can go round in any boat even an open one, or a makeshift cat as Francis Brenton died with the Sierra Sagrada.
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Old 24-05-2016, 03:12   #27
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Post Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

Hey guys,

first of all, thanks for the valuable feedback.

Second, I feel I need to clear up some bits and pieces.

First off, I do have a strong bicycling background, so I am very well aware that there is no "perfect" in boating as there isn't in cycling.

So when I used the term perfect, it actually should have read "as perfect as can be", which is of course an individual thing.

Also, I am not as naive as to think, I would buy a boat and off we go without sufficient training/experience. After all, a boat is no campervan, and there won't be any service stations on the open ocean.

On the other hand, all the sailing we can do here is sailing on a pond 500 m across as the crow flies, all other opportunities would mean a major financial burden, and in the end it would be cheaper to buy a boat in good condition and gather experiences with coastal sailing around the Mediterranean, working our way up as skills improve.

Financial-wise it would be cheaper to find a fairly inexpensive boat and do this then to seek training where we live for a couple years etc. I know this from bicycle touring, there are people who prepare endlessly to never go.

As for luxuries.

The whole thing behind no inboard motor, no toilet, beachable etc. is to cut down cost by being able to DIY as much as possible and be as independent as possible. Also, we are rather interested in nature and getting away from the beaten path but to follow the yachties trail around the world. (Again similar can be observed in the cycle touring community - there are people that follow the tourist trail around the world while a handful of people want to venture off the more beaten trails ...). Ok, well whether this is realistic or not is another story ...

I had long been attracted to the idea to row across an ocean, which I consider is perfectly doable these days even for a rather inexperienced person, lots of people have proven that (also I'm in contact with some of them), but ultimately it is so much more expensive (100.000 $+ to cross an ocean) because it requires much more specialized gear, takes longer, which creates logistic issues which require the specialized gear and so on, and what do once you reach the other side? An ocean rowing boat is pretty much useless for a leisure cruise and can't be sold just like this, unless one invests in a fairly recently built boat, which drives up the price ...

So, thanks again for the valuable info, gives me food for thought!
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Old 24-05-2016, 03:39   #28
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

Been reading these "want to start sailing" threads for a while here on CF. What strikes me the most is the fact that many topic starters are stuck somewhere far away from real sailing areas of their respective countries. So my first advice to any one wanting to get into sailing life, before recommending this or that particular boat, would be to re-arrange their lives to be able to move closer to where the sailing action is. Otherwise it becomes "chicken and egg" problem. IMO unless you're willing to do such a drastic step all of the talk of wanting to sail RWT is just that - talk.

Move to a boating area, easy enough to do in US, Canada or EU (doesn't have to be an oceanside or a seacoast, a large enough lake or a sailable river will do), join a local sailing club and/or buy a trailer sailer 22-25ft which can be parked off season more or less relatively inexpensively (compared to the expense of keeping a 25-35ft non trailable boat at a yard) and start sailing actively, at least a few times a week in season. That will get you much closer to all your long term sailing goals than any books, seminars or forum hopping put together.

By the time you've done a few seasons of either club sailing or with your own "training boat" you'd know enough about your sailing needs, wants, musts, etc. to have your own opinion as to which boat is the best for you. You'd probably recommend the same approach to someone who wanted to start cycling with the eventual goal of long distance/RTW bike travel.
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Old 24-05-2016, 04:15   #29
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

Simonadventures, in your posts I see so much of myself 40 years ago! The following is at the same time to EN-courage, as to DIS-courage you. It will depend very much on your own personality & "the turns of MANY friendly cards"
In 74 I was 19, Austria, teacher (= low income - lots'a sparetime) & completely @loose ands what to do with my life (career, social status, ...was out of the question)
I read a book by the first austrian singlehanded circumnavigator, Wolfgang Hausner, started to build a 34' Wharram cat here in Austria in 77, finished in 81, trucked it to the Adriatic & set off with my lady, both of us, 23 & 25 now, never having sailed on saltwater before. The boat was spartan as could be: outboard as auxiliary, allband-receiver & echosounder as only electronics, toilet=hole in the bridgedeck & bucket, 1 batterie, 2 interior lights, paraffin 2-burner stove, water in jerrycans
from our circumnavigation (panama- & suezkanal) we returned in 88
unlikely as it sounds: despite nearly constantly having to work/modify/maintain on the boat it was an incredible adventure for us two, (wouldn't want to have missed it for the life of us) - we had discovered "our life"!
sold the boat, married, bought a used 37' aluminium monohull (how far can u go from a Wharram?) in 89, had a kid in Tahiti (Raiatea actually) in 90, returned from our 2nd time around in 93 to the Med, worked 3 years on a charterbase & took her around again (3rd time 4 us two, 2nd for the boat, completing 1st time for our son, then 6) (this time we even had a gps...)
back in 99, since then in Austria, "kid" neartly finished with his university degree, we, 60 & 58 looking forward to the lady's retirement (JUNE 18!!!) when I'll be throwing the towel too...(there is a thread abt. the capability of boat from myself here...)
to sum up: to do it like this CAN work - it is just not very likely! And to do it differently would reduce risks dramatically...
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Old 24-05-2016, 04:18   #30
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Re: My perfect sail boat for RTW cruising

I think one of the best ways to save money is to learn more about the boats and boat models, follow the market, and eventually buy a slightly oldish, not too big, but well kept and well equipped boat when it is the time and you find one. There is a lot of variation in boats and also in their prices, and you may be able to buy what you need without paying too much, and without paying too much for popular expensive features that you do not need. Since you seem to satisfy with a modest amount of luxury features, you might get your boat half free. I don't recommend a "project boat" however. Buy a boat that is at least 90% ready to go.
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