My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Solid advice. We don't come in ridiculously fast, of course. The issue is that the rudders are about 10 feet apart, so there is zero interaction between them and the prop wash. Boat motion through the water is the only thing that gives us any control at all. So, it's just the nature of the boat.

It's actually the only thing about the boat that I don't like. I've gotten used to it, but there is necessarily a little more risk than on a conventional boat. It's ok-if it's too windy, we'll typically just stay out or find a 't' head or the like to lay to until things die off.

TJ

I know that you & I have talked about docking boats like this before, with my being familiar with the issues, firsthand. There is however, another technique aside from "throwing & catching" the boat at speed via reversing the prop to stop her.

When I had a trimaran, she didn't have an engine, & she absolutely did not respond to the helm quickly. Being quite directionally stable, even at high speeds. So often times when docking solo, particularly when I had a side tie that wasn't much longer than the boat, & had neighbors in front of or behind me on the side tie. I would bring her in at anywhere from 45-90 degrees to the dock, & jump onto the dock with a long bow line, plus an extra long stern line. And then use the lines to shift her into position parallel to the side tie, while using the lines to pull her in closer.

I've done similar things with mono's, including heavy & high windage ones. Which, having a powered capstan on the bow as part of the windlass, plus cockpit winches, makes controlling her position in relation to the dock & other boats, that much easier. Especially if there's an offsetting wind, or one blowing from an obique angle. While, obviously, winds blowing parallel to the dock make tying up fairly simple.

It's worth thinking through one's options about these techniques anyway, & gives a few more options on "springing", since it's so easy to adjust the line lengths during the process. As well as the position of the boat via them. You can put a bow line onto the dock, with a fender in between the hull & the dock, occassionally adding bursts of power ahead. While pulling the stern in with a long dockline, & slowly easing out the bow line until she's parallel to & close to the dock. Particularly if you use a winch, or powered winch to control the stern line. Even if in order to do so you have to lead the line through a block on the toerail, & then to the winch.

Also, not that I'm a bow thruster fan, but there are ones which mount fully externally. Perhaps a thread about them would be worth starting? As I'm sure that there are more than 1 or 2 members who have them. And there's naught which says that you couldn't have one both at the bow & the stern.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I know that you & I have talked about docking boats like this before, with my being familiar with the issues, firsthand. There is however, another technique aside from "throwing & catching" the boat at speed via reversing the prop to stop her.

When I had a trimaran, she didn't have an engine, & she absolutely did not respond to the helm quickly. Being quite directionally stable, even at high speeds. So often times when docking solo, particularly when I had a side tie that wasn't much longer than the boat, & had neighbors in front of or behind me on the side tie. I would bring her in at anywhere from 45-90 degrees to the dock, & jump onto the dock with a long bow line, plus an extra long stern line. And then use the lines to shift her into position parallel to the side tie, while using the lines to pull her in closer.

I've done similar things with mono's, including heavy & high windage ones. Which, having a powered capstan on the bow as part of the windlass, plus cockpit winches, makes controlling her position in relation to the dock & other boats, that much easier. Especially if there's an offsetting wind, or one blowing from an obique angle. While, obviously, winds blowing parallel to the dock make tying up fairly simple.

It's worth thinking through one's options about these techniques anyway, & gives a few more options on "springing", since it's so easy to adjust the line lengths during the process. As well as the position of the boat via them. You can put a bow line onto the dock, with a fender in between the hull & the dock, occassionally adding bursts of power ahead. While pulling the stern in with a long dockline, & slowly easing out the bow line until she's parallel to & close to the dock. Particularly if you use a winch, or powered winch to control the stern line. Even if in order to do so you have to lead the line through a block on the toerail, & then to the winch.

Also, not that I'm a bow thruster fan, but there are ones which mount fully externally. Perhaps a thread about them would be worth starting? As I'm sure that there are more than 1 or 2 members who have them. And there's naught which says that you couldn't have one both at the bow & the stern.

We actually do quite a lot with spring lines. My description of our docking is really as much for humor as anything. I've only once or twice had anyone flee.

External thrusters? I've looked at them. I did seriously consider one, though. It would be the easiest, cheapest option by far. Not to mention the lightest. But, as time goes on, I'm finding myself wishing for one less and less. Now that we're heading into the Med, my opinion might change rapidly, however.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I can't say that I've ever used thrusters, nor even wished whatever boat I was skippering had one. Though there are times I'm sure they'd have made things a bit easier. But then again, until a decade or two ago, they were quite the rarity on pleasure craft. Particularly on vessels under 100', & or, that had twin screws.

Now, to some degree they're like GPS, or chart plotters, in that a significant percentage of folks simply couldn't handle intermediate & larger sized vessels without them.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by TJ D

I do have to admit that the electric winch feels quite decadent at times. Everything for the main leads to this winch, and it really does turn what should be a decent workout into child's play.

I've never had one before. It's glorious.

We did a little late winter cruise of your part of the world this year, by the way. Falmouth was a great place for a visit. All of western England, for that matter.

If only the weather were a little better!

I'm with you, call me spoilt but I'm fully for my electric winch.

[waterman46]

Personally, I have no problem with single or doublehanded large yachts, but when I see a large family cruising on a 30 footer, I am guilty of thinking "that boat is too small". I guess this is just as bad as others thinking that our Morgan 46 is too much boat for just me and my wife.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

then:

But, I do everything on the boat solo, with the exception of spinnaker douses.

I don't believe you're soloing into those berths, with expert crew standing idly by... you're fooling nobody here (Darn, even those Volvo solo yachts must need shore help when berthing.)

I dock our boat all the time solo, it's not a big deal. But Med mooring using an anchor without a helm remote has presented a challenge, but even that can even be done solo. Did it six times this season without incident.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I dock our boat all the time solo, ...

I vividly recall years ago watching a large bermudian-rigged sail training yacht, fully crewed by young cadets (or schoolkids), sail gracefully into Portpatrick harbour (it seemed a tiny-weeney dog-leg hole in the rocks) and tie alongside the rock wall without fuss, without cracking an egg. I was blown away by the ease and skill of docking that 'ship' next to my 19' boat. But she had a crew of maybe 20!

I just love watching others docking - it's about the only sport where I prefer to be spectator.

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

But Med mooring using an anchor without a helm remote has presented a challenge, but even that can even be done solo. Did it six times this season without incident.[emoji2]

Best approach to med dockings is as follows. You let out enough chain/line for the depth, then go over your anchor spot with bow towards the dock, drop the anchor, then go back to the helm. The anchor will grab, the boat will turn, then you put in slow reverse and hopefully you will be well aligned and close to the dock when the line is tight.

When executed right, this maneuver allows you to dock in under 3 minutes. When executed wrong, well, it is a little scary but typically you have enough time to get out bow first.

Many old timers in Greece dock this way.

[daletournier]

I don't dock my boat solo, the freeboard is just to high to quickly jump off and manage my lines, if I miss judged it, it could be nasty, I'm relatively young and fit (well 48) but concrete is concrete.

[Kristoff21]

External thrusters? I've looked at them. I did seriously consider one, though. It would be the easiest, cheapest option by far. Not to mention the lightest. But, as time goes on, I'm finding myself wishing for one less and less. Now that we're heading into the Med, my opinion might change rapidly, however.

A bow thruster is a useful in the med I've found.

Not because you really need one to maneuver and dock a 30 to 50ft sailboat, but because other people create situations where, to have one, means a much easier life.

In the med you are competing with lots of other people for either marina space or stern-to dockside space. When you arrive somewhere you need to simply get the damn boat into its berth as quickly as possible, before someone else decides they also want that spot.

With charter boats everywhere, all wanting to tie up for lunch, if you are taking your time meticulously planning your un-thruster assisted move into the berth in textbook sailing fashion, you may find someone just cuts you up and parks their boat where you were planning to go.

Having a thruster also makes it easier to hold station just off the quay whilst waiting for someone else to complete their docking process so you can be next to go in, making your intentions very clear as your boat remains in the the correct orientation to back right in, without needing to get some way on first to to get enough steerage to overcome prop walk. Just go stright back and move the bow left or right with the thruster. You can also crab the boat a space or two along the quay wall like this.

None of these situations need a thruster, but when I charter a boat that has one, I tend to use it, a lot.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I can't say that I've ever used thrusters, nor even wished whatever boat I was skippering had one. Though there are times I'm sure they'd have made things a bit easier. But then again, until a decade or two ago, they were quite the rarity on pleasure craft. Particularly on vessels under 100', & or, that had twin screws.

Now, to some degree they're like GPS, or chart plotters, in that a significant percentage of folks simply couldn't handle intermediate & larger sized vessels without them.

I've never been tempted to buy a bow thruster. But, I'd sure take one if someone offered to give me one!

[David B]

Originally Posted by TJ D

It's late here in Alaska, and I was just reflecting on our interactions with our fellow sailors during our latest cruise. Now, we were in Europe, where even 30 footers are commonly seen with 4-5 crew, so perhaps this explains it.

Ok, I know this has been beat to death, but I've had a heck of a run of people over the summer who have passed by our boat stop and tell us, with great certainty, that our boat is simply too big for 2 people. Maybe even dangerous!!

I'm really having a hard time getting my head around this kind of thinking. Now, I understand that back in the time of say, the Hiscocks, when sails were made of cotton, winches were crap or absent, and everything was done by brute force-things were different.

Back then, maybe a 300 square foot main was the limit.

Fast forward to 2017-the gear is SO good, SO reliable, that I find dealing with the main (nearly 900 square feet, slab reefing) on our boat no more demanding than it was on my first boat, a 36' ketch with a tiny rig. I reef off the wind with zero drama. (Hint-external tracks and lots of McLube are your friend)

This is done with all manual gear, save a single electric winch which we can live without.

I just don't get it. What the heck is the problem? Guys are singlehanding IMOCA 60's solo around the world in the southern ocean, for Pete's sake. Surely a skilled couple sailing conservatively are not reckless in a far more modest boat.

But still, they keep coming... 'Too big'-'Just a matter of time before you're overwhelmed'-'It would be like going into battle-I'd want a platoon of strong men'. Things like this.

I'm wondering if some of you on the bigger end of the spectrum hear this a lot too? I find it quite odd.

Anyway, rant over. I hope nobody thinks I'm being boastful-it's really a source of genuine curiosity for me, this theoretical size limit that so many of us seem to take as an absolute.

I have to say, we have never come across this, other than when we express interest in going up another metre or so, and being told, we don't need a bigger boat (but a full workshop and a dinghy garage would be nice .....).

I agree with you - a well set up boat can be handled by just one person, let alone two, and when it comes to docking, then we just ask for help if it is available, and if it is not, then the two of us just do it ourselves - reverse in, get a line on, power against the line, get a second one on, and then you can relax, with the engine ticking over holding everything, while we deal with 'slime lines' etc (or if no 'slime lines' and we need to drop anchor, then it is even easier just reversing on the chain until we reach the dock).

In the first few years, we attracted attention due to our size - these days, we are very much 'average', and see boats larger than us being happily handled by a couple like ourselves.

It's all a matter of perspective.

[sazarac]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

55' - yep, your boat is too big ... tell you what though, out of pure generosity, I'll do a straight swap, you can have mine

All kidding aside, during our boat search I stepped aboard a Frers 44' (maybe it was 46) as it was way underpriced for such a beauty and I just had to have a look aboard. In less than a minute I had decided it was far too big for me to handle, whatever the price-tag. Broker just shook his head - he thought I was crazy - so I believe folks (like me) used to handling smaller boats just don't feel at all comfortable looking up at all that added responsibility. So, please don't be too upset with our stupid comments - they may come from genuine concern, almost certainly from genuine ignorance.

I sail a 1964 Bounty 2, 40 ft 10 ton. Thirty years majority solo. Went on a three day trip on a 70 ft. In about 20 minutes I forgot the size difference. Bigger boats are easier because they are , more stable, better pathways to the work, docking is far easier because the boat doesn't get blown around like small boats. They work the same way.

[sazarac]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Thats us.
We very rarely come into a berth/fuel dock but when we do it at our "in gear" speed of 5.5knots with a big belt of reverse to to pull us up at the end, all is good.

Come in slow, steady and seemingly in control , clicking in and out of gear to stay at the 4 knot speed limit and we make a complete balls up of it.

Came in hot last summer. Went for reverse, stuck in fwd.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by sazarac

Came in hot last summer. Went for reverse, stuck in fwd.

Let me guess, lack of maintenance?