Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

[smj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I object to your comparison with monos length for length, and draft for draft. If you are draft limited, you should forget monos. Due to the inherent design of them, they need more draft for their ballasted keels. I don't count swing-keel monos as this is an expensive, troublesome, and inefficient approach -- I would just buy a cat or a tri and forget about it, if I were so severely draft limited (and why would you be? seems like an armchair hypothetical to me).

A comparable mono, as we have been discussing, is going to be longer and narrower, compared to a shorter and wider multi. It is not apples to apples to compare length for length.

But all that being said, I generally agree with everything else you wrote. Tri's give probably the best performance you can get in a smaller cruising boat. From a performance point of view, they are inherently superior to both mono and cat -- at least in smaller sizes. Nor do they have the twitchy motion/ bridgedeck slap problem of cats.

I like them very much and if I were stupid or crazy enough to own two boats (kind of like having two wives -- crazy, isn't it?), my second boat would be a Dragonfly 1200. Absolutely outrageous performance for a boat that size, and an absolute blast to sail, and all for remarkably modest money. Can be folded up to fit into an ordinary berth, or navigate tight situations! Can be beached or dried out! Has been clocked at over 20 knots -- a 39 foot boat! Now that's cool . . . I can't think offhand of any even remotely cruisable boat of any type less than 45' which can keep up with it.

Whoa there Mr. Dockhead. In your first post you said you should base comparisons on cost and interior space. The Searunner would probably cost less and have less interior space than a 34' mono yet is faster on all points of sail. Since its faster now you want to change the basis of comparison?

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by rtbates

One is still at it's most stable right side up and the other upside down!

No, this is not true. The SR 34 is stable "either way", with sealed voids in the wings, and no lead, she will remain stable in either position, including knocking the bottom of ALL THREE hulls. They have sailed in this condition, fully awash up to the deck, all the way home. In some cases, upside down tris (the Rosy Noel), when overcome and flipped, provided food, shelter, and water, for THREE MONTHS to its occupants, until it drifted to shore. This is of coarse only true in a warm climate, with a fully prepared boat. Just like a life raft, cold and lack of preparation will do you in...

Most monohulls, caught in a similar condition, would be in THEIR most stable position, which is of coarse, on the bottom, along with crew. BESIDES... With over 100,000 hours of experience at building and installing these things, I can assure you that the most likely way your monohull is to sink, is actually from a rotten hose, failed clamp, or broken through hull. Engine systems!

When our PSS shaft seal failed once, and we were away, the main hull only took on about 18" of water, before the amas held her up, and the flooding stopped. Unless you have NO openings of any kind on your hull, you are more vulnerable to this, as well as hitting that debris from Japan! These are the real culprits.

Multihull disasters result in more "stories being told", because 95% of the time, the occupants of the "lost" boat survive. This is FAR less true in monohulls.

I've studied the stats for over 40 years, and these are the facts... That's why I sail on a Searunner. I don't get "that sinking feeling" on her. In a cold climate, I might make a different choice entirely.

ONLY the very rare, "bulletproof", (usually metal) overbuilt & rigged, southern ocean "special purpose monohulls", are likely to survive a 360 degree roll. (We're talking about <.1% of the boats that are out there cruising, at a given time).

VERY few "average, mom & pop", 34' production monohulls, will come up undamaged = not flooded, and sail on, after a full 180 degree inversion, or a 360 degree roll. This is a myth! Usually, in this case, they loose their rig, burst open, and sink... before even trying to get into that life raft.

Even if one made it to the raft, the experience is MISERABLE! Read the stories... Steve Callahan, the Bailys, etc.

Also... "in warm water", LONG TERM survival has been proven to be much better in an inverted, but fully prepared trimaran, than a fully prepared life raft.

The prepared but inverted SR 34, (having sealed wings), still floats high, leaving access to water, hand watermaker, food, pyrotechnics with ALL 16 years of out of date flares & such, various radios, spare flashlights, spare batteries, ample tools, meds, etc. I can even continue taking my vitamins, or dress my wounds. It is an entire support system!

Without a doubt... A similar sized 34' centerboard monohull, designed for fast passages, warm climates, and good ventilation, with similar amounts of stuff on board, would be miserable, AND instantly sink like a stone, in the conditions that it would take to capsize our 34' tri.

M.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Well, there's sailors and there's sailors...




Nick

There are also photographers who understand the term perspective distortion caused by a big lens.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

No, this is not true. The SR 34 is stable "either way", with sealed voids in the wings, and no lead, she will remain stable in either position, including knocking the bottom of ALL THREE hulls.

The mast sails and rigging, or the remains thereof, will make the structure more stable inverted.

[tomfl]

Just a few more random thought to keep the water muddy.

A while back I gave a big OK to the poster who said something like "cruising should be fun and if it is not you are doing it wrong".

The fun should not just be at anchor but when sailing as well, and I can tell you up front I had a ear to ear grin on my face when sailing the F24, and I would bet any sailor worth their salt would also at least have a little smile. The Fboats are just stupid fun to sail, especially when you are passing a monohull twice your LWL with two fingers on the tiller and a cold one in the other hand. I know the F24 is not really suitable for much more than limited coastal cruising, but I would much rather be coastal cruising on it than any similar sized monohull.

Back in the day I use to race Lightings and an OD popular in South Florida called a Southeaster. Also spent time on other OD boats that used a trapeze. While some of these boat might keep up with a tri like the F24 it would take much more effort, not to mention skill, to do so.

Bumping the size up a little boats like the Telstar T2, C31, or small Dragonfly offer a lot more comfort for cruising while retaining great performance. Once you get to the bigger Dragonfly or the C37 we are talking about boats that have claimed line honors in races like the King's Cup while being able to be sailed by non professional sailors at speeds few monohulls can match even when they have a crack crew.

One other note, I have spent time lately in some Dragonfly forums and some owners claim there are problems when you beach them. Most of the model specific tri forums also point out that beaching is bad for the bottom paint even if there are no structural issues.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by smj

Whoa there Mr. Dockhead. In your first post you said you should base comparisons on cost and interior space. The Searunner would probably cost less and have less interior space than a 34' mono yet is faster on all points of sail. Since its faster now you want to change the basis of comparison?

No, actually, you're right there. Point well taken. A tri is a very special thing -- less rather than more space per linear foot and a whole different performance profile.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

No, this is not true. The SR 34 is stable "either way", with sealed voids in the wings, and no lead, she will remain stable in either position, including knocking the bottom of ALL THREE hulls. They have sailed in this condition, fully awash up to the deck, all the way home. In some cases, upside down tris (the Rosy Noel), when overcome and flipped, provided food, shelter, and water, for THREE MONTHS to its occupants, until it drifted to shore. This is of coarse only true in a warm climate, with a fully prepared boat. Just like a life raft, cold and lack of preparation will do you in...

Most monohulls, caught in a similar condition, would be in THEIR most stable position, which is of coarse, on the bottom, along with crew. BESIDES... With over 100,000 hours of experience at building and installing these things, I can assure you that the most likely way your monohull is to sink, is actually from a rotten hose, failed clamp, or broken through hull. Engine systems!

When our PSS shaft seal failed once, and we were away, the main hull only took on about 18" of water, before the amas held her up, and the flooding stopped. Unless you have NO openings of any kind on your hull, you are more vulnerable to this, as well as hitting that debris from Japan! These are the real culprits.

Multihull disasters result in more "stories being told", because 95% of the time, the occupants of the "lost" boat survive. This is FAR less true in monohulls.

I've studied the stats for over 40 years, and these are the facts... That's why I sail on a Searunner. I don't get "that sinking feeling" on her. In a cold climate, I might make a different choice entirely.

ONLY the very rare, "bulletproof", (usually metal) overbuilt & rigged, southern ocean "special purpose monohulls", are likely to survive a 360 degree roll. (We're talking about <.1% of the boats that are out there cruising, at a given time).

VERY few "average, mom & pop", 34' production monohulls, will come up undamaged = not flooded, and sail on, after a full 180 degree inversion, or a 360 degree roll. This is a myth! Usually, in this case, they loose their rig, burst open, and sink... before even trying to get into that life raft.

Even if one made it to the raft, the experience is MISERABLE! Read the stories... Steve Callahan, the Bailys, etc.

Also... "in warm water", LONG TERM survival has been proven to be much better in an inverted, but fully prepared trimaran, than a fully prepared life raft.

The prepared but inverted SR 34, (having sealed wings), still floats high, leaving access to water, hand watermaker, food, pyrotechnics with ALL 16 years of out of date flares & such, various radios, spare flashlights, spare batteries, ample tools, meds, etc. I can even continue taking my vitamins, or dress my wounds. It is an entire support system!

Without a doubt... A similar sized 34' centerboard monohull, designed for fast passages, warm climates, and good ventilation, with similar amounts of stuff on board, would be miserable, AND instantly sink like a stone, in the conditions that it would take to capsize our 34' tri.

M.

The issue of capsizing and stability (and sinking) is, I submit, a red herring. Like many other mono sailors who, like me, have spent some time on cats, the possibility of capsizing seems really frightening to me. One of many reasons why I would never own a cat -- I don't feel safe on them in rough conditions. But this is subjective and probably irrational -- statistics prove beyond a doubt that multis are just as safe as monos -- neither has any advantage in real life. So better just leave this out of the discussion, IMHO.

Like many other things here, perceived safety is just a subjective matter of taste. Some people (like me) find it terrifying that you could go over and the boat wouldn't come back. Other people (like many cat sailors) find it terrifying that you could just sink. There's no right or wrong answer -- both points of view are "right".

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ArtM

Or, to be more succinct, I believe the monohull sailboat is now obsolete, at least in the cruising market, and is being sustained in the market through a combination of nostalgia, traditionalism, and misinformation.

A patently silly statement, although I am pretty sure that it was intended as a -- ahem -- "intentionally provocative" one, I'm not using the "t" word.

First of all, multi sales are a fairly small share of the market which has always been dominated by monos, and there are no signs that mono sales are dropping off any cliffs.

Second, it is demonstrably false that cats are "better in every way" than monos. It is actually true that all boats are compromises, and for a cruiser with some tons of gear, multis are probably generally worse than monos.

Third, it is really not right to make such decisions with "spreadsheets" -- this discussion is strictly an armchair one. People don't buy boats that way.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

He did not say he did it on his boat. He only said he had done 300 miles in a day.

This is what he said

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

The day you join the 300 mile club, you can talk smak about how slow monos are..
I've got more than a few multi-day, open ocean miles under my keel and the only time Ive ever seen a multi-hull on the open water was when I was passing them..
You need to take your attitude back up on the porch, You dont have what it takes to play with the big dogs..............

Happy for him to clarify, currently I don't believe him. As for the only ever seen a multi when he was passing one, ahem, again - just don't believe him. The clear implication is that his Bendy 42 is faster than EVERY multihull out there. And faster than a lot of boats like Volvo 60s for that matter.

I try hard to stay out of these pointless discussions but when people tell outrageous porkies, well ya just gotta call em.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A patently silly statement, although I am pretty sure that it was intended as a -- ahem -- "intentionally provocative" one, I'm not using the "t" word.

First of all, multi sales are a fairly small share of the market which has always been dominated by monos, and there are no signs that mono sales are dropping off any cliffs.

Second, it is demonstrably false that cats are "better in every way" than monos. It is actually true that all boats are compromises, and for a cruiser with some tons of gear, multis are probably generally worse than monos.

Third, it is really not right to make such decisions with "spreadsheets" -- this discussion is strictly an armchair one. People don't buy boats that way.

1) Not a troll, but this is strictly limited to cruising class multi-hulls 35ft and up and their comparable monohull boats (i.e. 45ft and up)
2) You might be right, but I'm not convinced. I would be interested to see sales growth figures for Monos vs Multi's in the cruising class in particular. Please share your source, if you have one. I speculate that multihull sales in the that segment will show substantial acceleration compared to monohulls. This should not be controversial at all, given that multi-hull designs are relatively new.
3) I disagree with this. I think that people buying cruising class vessels, often exceeding $300,000 USD in value, likely make use of spreadsheets or their equivalents in evaluating a boat purchase, unless the happen to live in the BVI and can view 100 different cruising boats for sale in an afternoon.

[ArtM]

Oops, I got your numbers mixed up. To address your "other" point, I've just never heard or read anyone commenting that they would have purchased a catamaran for cruising, but that it just couldn't hold all their "tons" of stuff. As a cargo vessel, they may not be they right choice.

But then I also believe that that the sailing cargo ship is obsolete, having never seen one operating in my lifetime - that doesn't mean it's true, though. Maybe the square riggers are making a quiet comeback!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by tomfl

There are also photographers who understand the term perspective distortion caused by a big lens.

Compression is what we call it; distortion is for Nikon shooters

cheers,
Nick.

[neilpride]

ArtM! Take a look at this video and later tell us what you think!!

Sailing from the Marquesas to San Diego on a record breaking trip. - YouTube

[Bash]

Originally Posted by ArtM

The spreadsheets make it more fun for me.

And how well do those spreadsheets go to weather?

Seriously, you may want to consider backing away from the keyboard and getting a bit of tiller time. Trade the spreadsheets in for a couple of jib sheets and you may just discover the source of all that conventional wisdom you're rejecting.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by neilpride

ArtM! Take a look at this video and later tell us what you think!!

Sailing from the Marquesas to San Diego on a record breaking trip. - YouTube

Ah but that is a Dashew video... you're cheating, that doesn't count! those do 300+ nm days all the time which isn't possible !!

cheers,
Nick.