Legitimate Bluewater Question

[scuba0_1]

Originally Posted by ctl411

OK yes he will, if he can't / won't sail and his engine dies on a leeshore.

Agreed....

[Krogensailor]

Second video, damn lucky that engine didn't die halfway thru. And I do hope the anchor sets in the basin. There's some one the bow ready to drop.

[scuba0_1]

maybe the OP can explain why he thinks it would not happen to his boat...

[boatman61]

A German skipper died trying to get his boat and 'Sailing class' into Fig da Foz last year when he was advised not to try as the entrance was closed due to weather.. but no.. he 'knew' the entrance.. then trailing lines fouled his prop and things went from bad to fatal
Sadly he took one of the rescuers with him..
Luck does not make one any less a fool.. just a lucky fool

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[Paul Elliott]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the OP simply asked what he could do to stay off the rocks in the situations shown. So far, the useful answers have been about roller-reefing, dodgers, anchors, windage, running for port, and knowing how to sail.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Now, as to boat A . . . really not the best practice to be sailing in 50kts with a particularly furled jib . . .would be much better with a storm jib. And they seem to be in protected waters because the waves are not up . . . that video would be a different story with 5m breaking waves . . . really you don't want to be sailing a course with those on the beam (as they seem to be, although their steering/course seems to be less than stable and sometimes they are running). Either the helm is not very competent or the boat not well balanced.

I was going to bring up the partially furled genoa if you didn't. It looks to me like the perfect sail for the situation, and shows that you really don't need to bring a storm jib, let alone risk your life setting one up on the foredeck.

I agree that the sea state is not fully developed for 55 knots. The bigger the seas get, the more that boat is going to weave back and forth, but with the mainsail down at least they don't have to worry about accidental gybes.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by scuba0_1

maybe the OP can explain why he thinks it would not happen to his boat...

I didn't say that it would not happen to our boat. The question presented asks:

How can I minimize the risk of it happening to me if I'm placed in the same situation as boat "A." Obviously, what happened to boat "B" could happen to anyone.... hopefully, not to us.

Suggestions??

Ken

[scuba0_1]

Some have mentioned anchors, I don't know if that's the answer I sailed allot out of may port and st Augustine inlets may port was deep with tons of military and commercial ships and jetties for miles I saw allot of boats on those rocks, and st Augustine had a long inlet with moving sand bars. I saw a boat sail into that inlet during a blow and got sideways and ended up on the sand bar so quick. I would think if you're sails are not always at the ready and easily deployed it could be a bad day for some one.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by scuba0_1

Some have mentioned anchors, I don't know if that's the answer (edit). I saw a boat sail into that inlet during a blow and got sideways and ended up on the sand bar so quick. I would think if you're sails are not always at the ready and easily deployed it could be a bad day for some one.

Excellent! I've always thought of our anchor as an emergency brake, ready to go with a quick release of the clutch.

[boatman61]

If the boat in your 'Entry' video had dropped his hook he'd have broached and rolled...

[sartorst]

Reminds me of the guy who made it a point on any possible opportunity to point out the superiority of his Tayana over my boat or any other production boat,and the less intelligent operators of them,gets old fast, a few days later he left the marina only to return a with the coast guard as his boat washed up on the beach. I had a lot of questions why Mr tayana? but left it to an eye to eye contact Some people just do not get it!! I am sure he still had some reason to toot his own horn
Marina trolls

[JPA Cate]

It's nothing to modify on a boat, but why in the world would one motor along a lee shore with the mainsail covered and not ready to set? With 3 reefs in it, the boat might have been able to sail off shore adequately to save itself-- of course, the crew would have to want to try.

I think there is an illusion of safety newbies often have; it seems as if they think driving a boat around is like driving a car, and it isn't.

Kenomac, in response to your questions about the modifications to yachts to improve their safety, one thing we did was to have our new mainsail built so that at the first reef, we can leave both running back stays set and the sail clears, so that maneuvering in conditions where reefs are required no longer requires fussing with the runners, leaving us free to deal with--whatever. I personally question whether cruising boats should have runners which have to be tacked all the time, but that's another issue. There are a number of cruising boats which need their runners to support their inner forestay.

The thread on "Fake Boats" has begun to go into what contemporary or older boats are suitable for modification for "bluewater work." Some suggestions for modifications there have been made. A few of them are: installation of proper backing plates for winches, cleats, travelers; strongly engineered bow rollers (safety at anchor); adding layup where there is flexing; raising the bridge deck, or fabricating a higher one (could store duck boards therein); increasing rigging size, and so on. Adding window boards to protect the ports wasn't mentioned, but some of those huge windows could present a big problem when they blow out or the boat rolls. Inadequately secured tanks was another, and I'll add securing the batteries to that. Handholds or finger rails to help you get around the boat and stay under control. Positive closure for cabinets and drawers. Our engine mounts have cable tie downs as well as being bolted down; I hadn't seen that before.

Many people add things to their boats that decrease their boat's ability to handle big winds: the huge cockpit enclosures that add so much windage come to mind, as do objects that add weight aloft, like wind generators. Personally, I like my beer cold, so we have a wind gen to help out when the solars aren't keeping up, but the solar panels add windage and weight aloft, also. And so now we segue into the "all boats are compromises" discussion. [The gen-set for electricity and watermaking is also a compromise--more fuel, more labor, more CO2 into the atmosphere.]

It might be interesting to ask the catamaran owners what modifications they have made and what their compromises have been, too. They have some different issues, and perhaps they don't go to the same places--but we should hear from them, too , all my experience is in monos.

If the real issue of your question is something like "what may I not have thought of that I can do to improve my boat's user friendliness in heavy weather?", then perhaps you as the Oyster expert among us might have some interesting ideas we all could share. I'd really like to know what Evans has done to Hawk also. We have some pretty knowledgeable folks on the forum; we'll see who wants to add.

One of the tough things is that each of us has a budget, and the smaller budget guys and gals find it hard to relate to the larger budgets others have; this is a fact of life, and sometimes there's jealousy involved. In addition, there are some modifications too expensive for some to consider making to their boat.

[Kenomac]

Some excellent ideas Ann. One thing I hadn't thought of that you mentioned, would be to take down our bimini when the wind picks up, in order to decrease windage.

Point of information: I'm definitely not an Oyster expert, since we're only now heading into our third complete cruising season aboard one; we had the Hunter much longer and the O'Day longer still. There are actually quite a few Oyster Owners on the forum.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by colemj

I think my mind is more open than yours (I'm cruising on a production catamaran for chrissakes). Almost everything about your "thoughtful discussion" is about crew ability and not the boat - yet you seem intent on drawing a clear and distinct line between "proper" and "improper" boats for "bluewater". To validate your superior choice through others is my guess.

Mark

OK. If it will make you happy, use your imagination and picture an Oyster 53 laying on the beach instead of the Boat in video "B." I couldn't find such a video, so I used the one shown.

Now... Can you please offer some positive, educational suggestions???? I asked nice.

Ken

[hoppy]

Last year I was out in my Jeanneau in very similar conditions although it was more a sustained high 40's rather than low 50's. We did at times have it venturing in the 50's and a maximum gust of 59.

Rather than running with the wind we were on a beam reach and had the main with 3 reefs and a small amount of headsail rolled out. If we did have a sustained 50's we would have dropped the main.

The boat was wetter than in the video, but that was because we were going more beam on to the sea.

She was handling it nicely and that trip gave me a better understanding of how she handled.

The only negative I came away with was that withe the severely rolled in headsail the best we could point was 90 degrees apparent. As a result we were pushed 5nm south of our destination Mykonos and had a very uncomfortable motorsail to get to shelter.

It taught me the value of a stormsail. It would have allowed me to point higher and as the passage was around 60nm in a straight line, we only needed a couple of extra degrees.