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Old 13-04-2014, 17:48   #121
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Some posts have been removed here. Lets' keep the animosity down to a quiet simmer if possible.

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Old 13-04-2014, 18:05   #122
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Thieving from thieves, but where does it all stop? Oh, I see... they're double hull "sailors"... expected standard behaviour I guess.. ; )

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Old 13-04-2014, 18:16   #123
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

No excuse ever stripping somebody else's boat of gear, parts and pieces.

Moral is what you do when nobody is looking.

A thief will always try to justify, a stupid one will try it in public.

Nuff said.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:35   #124
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

For me taking something from a wreck or a abandoned ship, boat or whatever its bad omen, i laugh a lot when i see those poor bastards cruising around with names like Hurricane, Poseidon etc.... bad omen bro!!!
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:40   #125
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
For me taking something from a wreck or a abandoned ship, boat or whatever its bad omen, i laugh a lot when i see those poor bastards cruising around with names like Hurricane, Poseidon etc.... bad omen bro!!!
Geez. u have a point there.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:43   #126
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

SaltyMonkey just put back the Icom M802 SSB
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Old 13-04-2014, 20:04   #127
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Yeah I read it all. Funny, the cops in NC didn't come to the same conclusion. Seems you have a consistently unique view of law and justice

.

You seem to be confused by my statement and the cops response. What I stated was correct. Pat simply cashed a check, it was a scam (con job). Pascal did not buy anything or get any products from the deal, just cash for a fake check . Pat was just being a super nice guy and pascal took advantage of him. Not that this matters in the least, but if you going to tell me I'm wrong try to at least be correct. I talked to pascal for some time before the big rip went down and have shopped at Pats store many times. I was really hoping he would get paid back. I don't think that nomadik has made out so well that he's somehow now incurred the debts of pascal.
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Old 13-04-2014, 20:39   #128
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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You seem to be confused by my statement and the cops response. What I stated was correct. Pat simply cashed a check, it was a scam (con job). Pascal did not buy anything or get any products from the deal, just cash for a fake check . Pat was just being a super nice guy and pascal took advantage of him. Not that this matters in the least, but if you going to tell me I'm wrong try to at least be correct. I talked to pascal for some time before the big rip went down and have shopped at Pats store many times. I was really hoping he would get paid back. I don't think that nomadik has made out so well that he's somehow now incurred the debts of pascal.

Least we loose sight here, what happened in Oriental, no way justifies the thieving scum that looted her in the Bahamas, there is no moral equivalency

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Old 13-04-2014, 21:02   #129
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Disgusting! They should be ashamed of themselves.
What's next? My steel boat drags on it's anchor while we are hiking for a few days and people start looting my boat while it is still afloat but on the rocks?
I'm shocked! They think they can do this and even post about this. Made a comment on there blog that is now waiting for their moderation, don't think they will publish it. :-)
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Old 14-04-2014, 04:05   #130
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Did you read it? Seriously? Fine, whatever lazy sailor, I'll give you the scoop. Pat was in full legal pursuit of the Primadonna crew, trying to have them served with papers by the sheriff's department in Oriental, the papers were the "Notice of Right To Exempt Property", the 2nd step in recovery via small claims court. This is controversial because the victim won, however was unable to have them served with the necessary paperwork to continue on because they dipped out to Morehead City and beyond. Meaning he would have most likely been entitled to the property of equal or greater value from their ship, if not the whole ship, as compensation for the bad check because they had no money to repay him. Kinda changes things a bit doesn't it aye?
I think most of us know what thieving scumbags the Primadonna crew were... although exactly what some people here would do if their source of income was cut off while sailing in a foreign country I don't know. By sticking up for them a bit, I was just hoping that some forum members might try to imagine that it was THEIR boat on the reef.

However bad the Primadonna crew were, looting a boat which is still afloat and seaworthy is totally wrong. Not least because it is a real waste of a nice solid looking voyaging boat, starting the process of turning it from a recoverable boat in to an empty wreck. Dragging off the reef at high tide, towing to harbour and following a proper salvage procedure with the authorities is the good thing to do. Making sure some money from any sale goes to the guy who the Primadonna crew stole from is the really good thing to do... but maybe some of us prefer just to look after our own little world.

It says a lot that the presumably quite impoverished Bahamian fishermen had left it intact for months in spite of the valuable fittings on board, but the first set of '1st world' cruisers to turn up in their shiny catamaran strip it. This is pretty shameful. Let's be clear - these people probably stole a greater value of goods in one day than the Primadonna crew have been harangued for stealing, and they weren't even acting out of any sort of necessity (not that I'm trying to justify the actions of the Primadonnas). Unfortunately, it will be the Primadonna crew who are remembered as the thieving scumbags.
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Old 14-04-2014, 05:57   #131
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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I swear, I don't understand this community sometimes! None of you read as much as you should have, otherwise all this crap about law, theft definitions, morals, and all the other bullsh*t would have been directed to a far more complex question. ALWAYS read the links, and SEARCH other sources before babbling on about nothing! I'm new here, so I check every link posted to increase my knowledge. I've got an awesome library of sailing books because of it What none of you seem to have read is this: Have You Seen Primadonna? | TownDock.net, Oriental NC Please read that aritcle before carrying on with the speculations and accusations any further. It brings to light the complexities of U.S. law in this era which certainly need some revisions regarding incidents such as this.

Did you read it? Seriously? Fine, whatever lazy sailor, I'll give you the scoop. Pat was in full legal pursuit of the Primadonna crew, trying to have them served with papers by the sheriff's department in Oriental, the papers were the "Notice of Right To Exempt Property", the 2nd step in recovery via small claims court. This is controversial because the victim won, however was unable to have them served with the necessary paperwork to continue on because they dipped out to Morehead City and beyond. Meaning he would have most likely been entitled to the property of equal or greater value from their ship, if not the whole ship, as compensation for the bad check because they had no money to repay him. Kinda changes things a bit doesn't it aye?

There's more. After reading the article, I wondered if Pat was aware of what had happened to the vessel and crew which he was obviously searching for, so I asked him. He informed me that as of a week or so ago they were still in jail in Nassau, and the French counsel had stopped seeing them. Apparently France has to agree to take them back, and also pay for their tickets home, which doesn't seem likely. I don't know who came up with that they were deported, but my source says you're wrong. So it looks like they'll be in jail for awhile And considering they weren't going to do time for this in the U.S. anyways, this is at least some form of justice.

I still believe that Nomadik's crew is quite confused on the laws of salvage, probably from their buddies that got them into "wrecking" (see their blog link in the Primadonna's last pics piece). Which should seriously be pointed out to them, because this is a foul crime indeed. Fortunately the victims of Primadonna kind of deserve it, but what if they hadn't? Pat was already aware of their blog and reflected the same views most of us have on whether it was legal or not, and he noted that, "although the laws are different in each country, they're not that different, and they took first, asked questions later." I concur.
You seem frustrated with all the speculation that has gone on here, but then tell us not what the law says, but what YOU think is "most likely" to be. That's just sort of what the rest of us do too so welcome to the club!

As far as I'm concerned, no matter how the Primadonnas became penniless, there's no excuse for what they did to Pat and I'm happy that their karma from that caught up with them so quickly. Funny how that works....

BUT, just because some fisherman or other local says "help yourself," doesn't make it so. That boat and the things on it were not the fisherman's to give away and the Nomadiks certainly knew that. Just because you come across a boat with nobody around, that doesn't entitle you to declare it a "wreck" in your own mind/blog and commence looting it.

As a practical consideration, assuming the Primadonnas are still detained in the Bahamas or elsewhere and have no intention of permanently abandoning their boat, one would think that they would get in touch with a friend in the cruising community and ask them to, at a bare minimum, stop by their boat and at least put everything below and a padlock on the companionway for them. I think that's what most of us would do if we had to leave our boat somewhere unexpectedly, and within a week or two our boats would be sealed up or even refloated and moored at a safe location awaiting our return. I realize that not everyone has a pal living in the Bahamas and it's not the easiest place to get to unless you have a boat, but when you consider that Atoll and several others were willing to sail halfway out into the Pacific to recover Rebel Heart even though none of them knew the Kaufmanns personally, it would be a relatively simple thing to seal up Primadonna so only very determined thieves could get inside. But apparently the Primadonna's haven't called a friend and arranged for that and nobody in the cruising community seems to feel inclined to do it for them either.........karma?
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Old 14-04-2014, 06:12   #132
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

I've finished reading anything I could find on the two sailers and the boat. What amazes me is that for 12 months it appears the towns folk considered the vessel a derelict piece of crap that they just wanted it gone. There's quite a few pictures available of it, and going only in the pictures I doubt it was worth more than $20k.

The couple themselves were taken into custody and handed over to the French Embassy where pascol requested voluntary assistance to get back to France.

All the righteous name calling aside, it would appear this poorly maintained derelict vessel has been abandoned.

So, I think the story is over, and I'll move on to another story.
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Old 14-04-2014, 06:19   #133
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

I'd be interested in comparing this discussion to another on CF where the 'wrecker' was largely lauded. I can't find the thread or the blog article it was about, but I'm sure some on CF will remember. The gist of it was that a couple, fairly poorly off, and on an Atlantic crossing that had either a research or a charity bent, wandered into a particularly valuable boat drifting on the Atlantic, several hundred miles from the closest landfall in the Caribbean/East Coast US. They were able to contact the owner and arranged a large towing fee, however, after a couple of days' worth of activity, and in the face of worsening weather, abandoned the effort. Before doing so, however, they relieved the abandoned boat of several valuable pieces of equipment. Why is that case different than this?

- the boat was very far from land? (not important if the 'finders/keepers' rule is really made up - the couple should likely have sent the owner 65% of the current market value of the items they took from his boat, and maybe they did, I'm not sure.)
- the reversed wealth positions of each party (poor finder, rich owner vs. generally well-off cruiser vs. clearly impoverished owners)
- the length of time the boat had been unattended (three or so months vs. several months)
- the relative ease of bringing the boat to safe harbor (a tow off the reef and onto a mooring vs a two-person crew having to divide up and each single-hand boats back, one without power. It should be noted that aside from the scarcity of the crew, the 'found' boat in the Atlantic was in relatively good shape minus the lack of power)
- the 'wrecker's' initial attempts to contact the owner and arrange salvage vs. a free-for-all (doesn't really matter according to my understanding of salvage law - it's basically an all-or-nothing thing ain't it where you're only paid if you bring it back intact to land?)
- owners' past histories, i.e. the Primadonna's owners

It would be interesting to get the forum's take on this, as, despite the differences, the cases look pretty similar to me given my understanding of salvage law from past threads, but with very different reactions on CF.
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Old 14-04-2014, 06:22   #134
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Naaaa, I don't see any similarity at all,
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Old 14-04-2014, 06:33   #135
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

You're right - I should be more specific in my question. If, given that the 'finders-keepers' rule is bogus, and the original owner maintains ownership rights all over the world, no matter in what condition the boat is in or where it is found, do the differences between these two cases matter at all?
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