Last pictures of Primadonna

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by BandB

incidents like this don't have to be stretched far for boats in anchorages to be treated the same by those like the villains here.

This is probably the most troubling. Given the low bar set here, I'm surprised there's not a small industry of dinghy pirates cutting mooring lines or rope rodes at night and then claiming to have 'salvaged' the drifting boats.

Regarding the surfboard, it's actually a sailboard (more commonly called a windsurfer). Not much use without the sail! But it would be humorous to watch someone try.

[captain58sailin]

Used to be you find a dingy drifting, you pick it up and bring it back to the dock. Notify the harbor master, and friends that you have it, and someone might claim it and pay a small reward for it's recovery, or not, no hard feelings either way. Given the circumstances of Prima Donna, case could be made to salvage the whole vessel, and sell it, so why not parts of it? I would have been inclined to salvage the vessel, and yes use proper recourse under salvage law, in this instance the interested parties are in no position to pay for the salvage, and most likely the vessel is uninsured, but there are ways to find that out, and contact them. I once spoke with a maritime attorney in passing on this very subject and her response was basically "Finders keepers" with some provisions. In AK, you are required by law to recover your wrecked vessel if it is aground, and if you don't they will hire a salvage company to do it for you, and you get a bill if the sale of the boat/parts doesn't cover the cost. What I see here is a lot of gnat straining and camel swallowing.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by boatman61

They could find no cake...??

Ah, Boaty. When things get tense you are always ready with a little comic relief.

[oceannavigator]

There realky ARE pirates out there!! And they are wealthy Europeans who can afford a nice cruising catamaran. Looks like they really needed this several thousand dollar windlass.

A good time for "eye for an eye" justice in my opinion.

Knowing their boat, identity, etc, I'd go help myself to that nice tender they own one night to even up the score a little.

[oceannavigator]

Originally Posted by Mambo

Belize Sailor -
I have no idea what Bahamian law is on the subject. However, International Maritime law is very well developed and focuses on principals of salvage. Salvage does nothing like Nomadik suggests -- it does not divest the owner of property from his ownership. Instead, it rewards someone for saving that property based on equitable principals that the law uses to *imply* a contract between the salvagor and the vessel owner. So, if Nomadik had towed Primmadonna off the reef and into port, he would have had an equitable claim to be paid based on the value he saved. If Primmadonna had been unwilling or unable to pay that claim, then Nomadik would have had the right to either ask Pascal to sign over Primmadonna or to go to court for an order doing so. Here, however, Nomadik simply stripped a vessel he didn't own, rendering it less seaworthy and damaged. I have essentially no doubt this was a crime under Bahamian and / or international law.

This is the correct interpretation of international salvage law. It is about saving vessels and cargo from loss, then being rewarded for that effort. Manned vessel or not.

It has nothing to do with stealing things off boats and selling them.

As someone who salvages, you are just a temporary steward of property you do not own. Any property recovered from the stricken vessel is the property of the owner's.

The scumbags who stole it cannot show the property was in peril of being lost, nor risk to their boat or person, so don't actually have a salvage claim.

These people in the blog are crooks. They should be caught and charged.

When I salvaged a Sea Ray, i towed it from the rocks it was pounding on, with great risk to my own vessel. Later, after I rented a mooring for it, I filed a salvage claim, but dropped it when i found out the owner was not insured. He paid me for the mooring and a couple hundred as a reward for saving his boat.

I never tried to look inside it or take things from it because I was a salvor, not a crook.

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

This is probably the most troubling. Given the low bar set here, I'm surprised there's not a small industry of dinghy pirates cutting mooring lines or rope rodes at night and then claiming to have 'salvaged' the drifting boats.

Regarding the surfboard, it's actually a sailboard (more commonly called a windsurfer). Not much use without the sail! But it would be humorous to watch someone try.

Based on this, you don't even have to cut anything. Their definition of abandoned is that there isn't anyone there to tell them otherwise.

[onestepcsy37]

Originally Posted by oceannavigator

There realky ARE pirates out there!! And they are wealthy Europeans who can afford a nice cruising catamaran.

oceannavigator, if you read their blog (admittedly kind of long) you'll discover that they are actually immigrants to canada that worked their way through life (he was an otr truck driver i think) and then sold house and all to buy an rv, then sold that to buy the boat to go cruising.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

They could find no cake...??

Cake seemed to a French thing, and Englishman steals bread it would seem, course it could be all a family myth.


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[Kevin84]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Cake seemed to a French thing, and Englishman steals bread it would seem, course it could be all a family myth.


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Dont you know better then to spread myths? Lol. Verifiable facts only. After all, no one on CF would ever spread tall tails!

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[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kevin84

Dont you know better then to spread myths? Lol. Verifiable facts only. After all, no one on CF would ever spread tall tails!

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Lucky no blogs in the 19th century !

Dave


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[Kevin84]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Lucky no blogs in the 19th century !

Dave


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Tell me about it! Could you imagine something like Twitter during the American Revolution? "On our way to Bunker Hill. Down with the Crown!"

My ancestors would have been hung!

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[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

You're right - I should be more specific in my question. If, given that the 'finders-keepers' rule is bogus, and the original owner maintains ownership rights all over the world, no matter in what condition the boat is in or where it is found, do the differences between these two cases matter at all?

Got ya, well I think it gets down to the level of 'ethics' that an individual has. If a vessel has been abandoned then there are those, including me that would say it's ok. But I wouldn't be bragging about it. Others would sail on bye and not get involved, and there are a few misguided souls that would say they will attempt a salvage of the whole vessel, which if it was just a case of taking it under tow, then I would to. But in the case if this one I think it was a little more steadfast than some are thinking, which would imply some cost to get it afloat.

The poll has been interesting, though not well worded. But I wouldn't be judging anyone on what they would do. And there is one hell of a lot of judgement on people that occurs on CF.

[mayday12]

Hmm, I wonder if the supporters of this theft would have had a different opinion in a slightly different scenario - suppose for a minute those soon to be Saints on Rebel Heart didn't scuttle her, and had left it to drift. Also suppose it had washed up on a reef, locals didn't know where she came from. RH was trying to get back to her, but not yet made it there. Still okay to pillage and plunder? Remember, the original bloggers didn't know anything about the boat when they took the stuff, it was only after the fact they found out who the (admittedly less than savory) owners were.

[oceannavigator]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

oceannavigator, if you read their blog (admittedly kind of long) you'll discover that they are actually immigrants to canada that worked their way through life (he was an otr truck driver i think) and then sold house and all to buy an rv, then sold that to buy the boat to go cruising.

Ok, I only skimmed the about us section. Insert Canadian instead of European in my post.

Not at all interested in reading sailing blogs. Prefer to just live it.

Still, compared to the people they robbed, quite well off with that catamaran.

[rognvald]

I have read the entire discussion. There is much talk about right and wrong, legalities, facts and conjecture. However, there is a much simpler explanation for the subject at hand. Man is born with a survival instinct. It has been genetically encoded for 6 million years of human evolution . It simply states that an organism/human will respond to stimuli that further the organism's chance for survival, health or prosperity. Morality, on the other hand, is a learned behavior and is generally taught by parents or society. Moral/ethical decisions are made based upon the individual's commitment to his culture' values of right and wrong. It is very clear from the previous discussions where all respondents stand. It represents your ethics/morality and worldview. There are those that live by a moral/ethical compass and those that do not. The picture is clear. Good luck and good sailing.