Lagoon 380 - Post-Charter Review

[meyermm]

Originally Posted by Eleven

I've not been on a mono. I'm learning on a CAT. I feel safe. I know the hull speed is about 6 and a half to seven knots. When she wants to sail faster than that I'm pushing my luck and stressing the rigging. 6 to 6 and a half knots is a nice ride and nothing to gain by pushing harder. With the slim hulls of the 'faster' cats there's no hull speed. Buying new I'd like to see some indicator of 'pressure'. A tensometer on the rigging, a slipping clutch on the genoa sheet winches, something like that. Any ideas?
And why can't the mono men accept that more mono's loose their keel and sink, or just sink because they have a small hole, than cats ever flip. It's a very rare occurrence.
How many mono's are swamped from running aground on benign sand/mud banks on a falling tide? Laying on their side and failing to right as the tide returns.
But they do manoeuvre very well when docking, I do envy that. My single engine cat has a huge turning circle. So bad I might mount an outboard bow thruster.

This Sunday I am going out on Moreton Bay to be entertained, for most who would not know the bay is full of sand banks and can blow. The entertainment I mentioned is my new expectation of seeing all these mono's sinking after hitting those sand banks. I get out there a bit on a jet ski and must admit I have never have seen any keels lying about but there is always tomorrow. I have also crossed the Pacific (mono) and damn still had the keel attached when we arrived.
I hate to add some info packed up by real data but most BOATS sink at marinas unattended and usually by simple things that would not have been a problem if crew were aboard. Insurance company data, which I think is more accurate than the catamaran salesman trying to make a sale.

[sigmasailor]

Originally Posted by YOGAO

You are right when you say that a mono "tells" you when to reef over a cruising multihull, but here's what we look for.

1) Increased heel (subtle, but it's there)
2) Increased weather helm (for upwind sailing)
3) Increased speed
4) Increased slamming into waves that "stops" your forward motion
5) Burying the bows into the wave in front (downwind).

Add to that, most manufacturer's will provide some guidelines. At a minimum you want to know these so you don't damage the sail cloth (as much!).

Fair Winds,
Mike

Thanks for your reaction.
I numbered your answers and have the following reaction (all about around 23 knots blowing at 90 degrees true):

1) Never really noted this (we had 8 foot waves and swell moving the whole platform; i seriously doubt if you can note any heel on a 8 ton 38 ft cat in those conditions;
2) Wheel gave absolutely no feedback at all and we never sailed upwind really; there was some weather helm though (I tied a piece of string on the wheel in the straight position; string was at the one o'clock position at the max., more like 10 to 15 degrees past 12);
3) Isn't that what we are looking for? When reefing a little before 25 knots speed did not go down (definitely a good time to reef); preventive reefing at 18 knots costs between 1-2 knots of boat speed. How much speed is too much?
4) True; we did note that. That and the fact we were nearing the manufacturers recommendations made is reef just before we hit 25 knots.
5) Never really saw that; of course the boat was pitching and some spray went over the bows (both) occasionally. We didn't really sail downwind either.

I am still wondering if a somewhat slack leeward shroud is normal; we saw slackness starting at around 15 knots. On our own monohull you see the same so it never really worried us.

To me bottom line remains to look at the instruments and more generally estimate wind force rather than trust your (monohull) feeling. We never felt really overpowered but some people seem to believe that sailing close to 25 knots with a full rig is pushing the limits.

Sail shape was good (new sails) and telltales properly flowing. My biggest concern would not be the sails (there was absolutely no flogging or unwanted shape or creases) but damaging the rig or maybe even loosing the mast.

In the beginning we did follow the Lagoon guidelines; later we were more conservative (and slowed down a little).

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by hummingway

...I realize that generally they are less likely to heel but when they do you can quickly get in trouble.

LOL.... Everytime a neophyte makes an uninformed post such as this one, the age old argument begins all over again.

Those who learn to sail a cruising cat, seldom have a problem. Those who read books written by people who haven't learned to sail one, will never buy a Cat anyway.

[Strygaldwir]

Not something I ever intend to test in my cat, but! It seems like most modern cruising cats are significantly under canvased. I have a fractional sloop rig and that seems to be the rule one the cruise cats. There have been many times when I wanted to add more sail, but... Oh well. I believe this under canvasing is intentional by the designers and manufacturers. They would like to keep the speed demons and inattentive relatively controlled. So, I think you'd have to work a bit to be blown over.

Pitch-poling, tripping however! Under those conditions you have a lot of feedback that you're in a danger area! You look straight ahead and up and you see water!

So, I too take a reef at 25 knots. Although, once again I was caught out once or twice in gust up to about 40 with full sails up. Bad Keith!

And most of us cat owners are not overly exciting over what someone else chooses to sail! You do what floats your boat, not what floats mine! BUT! let me tell you, an unhappy admiral is going to make any kind of extended sailing... problematic! Many of the admiral complaints I hear are directly address by a catamaran (Dark, cramped, healing, musty, damp, too small galley, too much rolling, no hot water, no ice....)

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by meyermm

Why are you cat lovers so protective all the person asked was for some first hand info.

If you took the time to actually read the thread, you'd see there has been no defensiveness, just people asking questions, and recieving answers.

That's because there has been none of the usual "multihulls aren't seaworthy, I wouldn't trust one out of sight of home" garbage.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by sigmasailor

Thanks for your reaction.
I numbered your answers and have the following reaction (all about around 23 knots blowing at 90 degrees true):

1) Never really noted this (we had 8 foot waves and swell moving the whole platform; i seriously doubt if you can note any heel on a 8 ton 38 ft cat in those conditions;
2) Wheel gave absolutely no feedback at all and we never sailed upwind really; there was some weather helm though (I tied a piece of string on the wheel in the straight position; string was at the one o'clock position at the max., more like 10 to 15 degrees past 12);
3) Isn't that what we are looking for? When reefing a little before 25 knots speed did not go down (definitely a good time to reef); preventive reefing at 18 knots costs between 1-2 knots of boat speed. How much speed is too much?
4) True; we did note that. That and the fact we were nearing the manufacturers recommendations made is reef just before we hit 25 knots.
5) Never really saw that; of course the boat was pitching and some spray went over the bows (both) occasionally. We didn't really sail downwind either.

I am still wondering if a somewhat slack leeward shroud is normal; we saw slackness starting at around 15 knots. On our own monohull you see the same so it never really worried us.

To me bottom line remains to look at the instruments and more generally estimate wind force rather than trust your (monohull) feeling. We never felt really overpowered but some people seem to believe that sailing close to 25 knots with a full rig is pushing the limits.

Sail shape was good (new sails) and telltales properly flowing. My biggest concern would not be the sails (there was absolutely no flogging or unwanted shape or creases) but damaging the rig or maybe even loosing the mast.

In the beginning we did follow the Lagoon guidelines; later we were more conservative (and slowed down a little).

A slack leeward shroud is pretty normal. On some boats with rotating rigs it can get to the extent that a bungee cord is used to prevent it whipping around too much.

You probably didn't see too many indicators that you were becoming overpowered because you weren't. Charter boats generally have fairly small rigs on them, and Lagoons are quite heavy and wide, so have very large righting moments.

[meyermm]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

If you took the time to actually read the thread, you'd see there has been no defensiveness, just people asking questions, and recieving answers.

That's because there has been none of the usual "multihulls aren't seaworthy, I wouldn't trust one out of sight of home" garbage.

No just the usual mono hulls heel, mono hulls sink, mono hulls are slow, mono hull keels fall off.

[Jim Cate]

Hey, this has been far to polite and civil, so I think I'll throw some petrol on the fire:

In the recent postings about damage from cyclone Ului in the Whitsunday Island area, there were two catamarans that SUNK (well, one of them still had the bows sticking out of the water). There were pictures of many boats, with 1,2, and 3 hulls washed ashore, but no mentions of monohulls that sunk.

I suppose that because so many monos sink (?) it isn't considered newsworthy, but ya gotta wonder!!!

Cheers, (from a monohuller that actually likes multis)

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Lake Macquarie NSW Oz

[44'cruisingcat]

Hopefully the forum admin is noting exactly who is trying to lead this thread down the usual path.

[Joli]

What? I haven't said anything.

Did you get out sailing yet?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Joli

What? I haven't said anything.

Did you get out sailing yet?

Kind of..... the sails will hopefully be made in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime I dug out an old headsail I had in the shed, which amazingly has almost the right luff length, but the foot is way too short and the leach way too long....it's from a masthead rigged mono....

So we can sail, sort of. We did hit 6 knots in about 12 knots breeze for a while. Actually that's better than the boat the sail was designed for could do...

Can't wait for the new sails.

[YOGAO]

Originally Posted by sigmasailor

I am still wondering if a somewhat slack leeward shroud is normal; we saw slackness starting at around 15 knots. On our own monohull you see the same so it never really worried us.

Yes, absolutely normal just like your mono

To me bottom line remains to look at the instruments and more generally estimate wind force rather than trust your (monohull) feeling. We never felt really overpowered but some people seem to believe that sailing close to 25 knots with a full rig is pushing the limits.

You got it! A cruising cat is much more about using the instruments and developing the "feel" over time. It really is there, but much more subtle than what you are used to on a mono.

Sail shape was good (new sails) and telltales properly flowing. My biggest concern would not be the sails (there was absolutely no flogging or unwanted shape or creases) but damaging the rig or maybe even loosing the mast.

Sail cloth will still get damaged even with "good" sail shape. Note I am not saying torn, but stretched, stressed and significantly reducing the life expectancy of the material. Full batten mains rarely flog (that's one of the bennies). If the rig has been properly maintained especially in an under-canvassed cruising/charter boat, you will almost always tear the cloth before you lose the rig.

Yes, we are looking for increased speed. What I meant was when you find the speed has suddenly jumped from 8 - 10 knots to 13 - 16 and notice that the wind has built from gusting 16 - 20 to 25 - 30, you might want to think reef. Sorry I didn't express it clearly (hope I did better on this round).

Sounds like you had a great trip and gained some valuable knowledge. Good thread.

Fair Winds,
Mike

[neelie]

Alinghi 5 is not your average cruising cat. Most cruising cats are by definition, clunkers, slow, stable and safe. Before everyone hurls bombs at me, read Evan Starzinger's survey on the myth of the 200 mile day.

Cats are at their best at anchor, which is where we are 95% of the time and which cruising is all about, unless you're Jessica Watson.

[Coot's Away]

Or Jessica's sailing mentor Sail-World.com : First yacht finishes - Tasman Race Record stands unbroken Note Jessica has done a bit of sailing on Big Wave Rider, so there you go, cat or mono?

[schoonerdog]

It should be obvious by now, but it really depends on the catamaran and how much stuff you've piled on it in terms of sailing enjoyment. My cat will do over 10 knots with it's 40 HP engines, which shows how little effort is needed to make it move, or around 6 knots in 10 knots of wind. At about 15 knots of wind, we'll do about 9 knots going upwind. Move to a beam reach and through out a gennaker and we'll be comfortably in the double digits. So it can be quite fun really seeing a rooster tail shooting back and up from the transoms, hearing the roar of the water as you hiss through it. In terms of when to reef, face it, 20+ knots of wind can do damage to any boat with a lot of sail up. I used to race monohulls with a bit of success and found them far less comfortable than our multi, lots of bruising from sitting on the rails, very stuffy on the inside, and frankly they were lucky to go half the speed of our cat EXCEPT in very light wind. You can raise a sail on a monohull when there's no wind indicated on the water, it's smooth as glass, and ghost along. Never really had that experience on a catamaran. We got our catamaran for a few reasons, the first was safety. We wanted positive structural bouyancy. You can find that on large passanger ships and some catamarans, though not many charter cats. We also saw speed as a safety issue to, the ability to move away from weather, present yourself on the right side of the storm by moving around it, the ability to get more quickly into a quick anchorage if something goes wrong. And frankly, twin engines. Most boats that get abandoned do so because their engine breaks down and they are having a hard time sailing. Twin engines move the odds of having a break down with your engines from 1 in say 200 to 1 in 4000. Can't really speak to that one enough. It also means you can choose where to repair your engine, not simply just the first available spot. I've been out and cruising and about now with my family for a little over 11 years and never been towed, not once going up and down the ICW three times, never in the Chesapeake, certainly not in the Caribbean. I've been aground a LOT of times, but you can walk a cat off a bottom which monos really can't do. Stability, room, visibility were never top considerations for us, but they are nice benefits. Were I choosing a cruising boat (not necessarily just a live-aboard) I'd pick the safest boat first, comfort second. Were I being only a live-aboard, I'd pick comfort first and get a big power boat.