Insight on Code Zero vs Asymmetrical Spin

[jsk]

I know this is a common question… But looking for some new advice please. Boat is a 2000 Beneteau 361 that I am beginning to race. Right now we are Jib (Genoa) and Main only. Genoa is 150% and drives the boat.

Am struggling to decide whether I should get an Asymmetrical with furler, code zero with further (I have a custom bowsprit that I could install) or just get a whisker pole for my Genoa.

Asymmetrical would be awesome… But I would need to put it up and take it down each time I use it.

I can leave a code zero up – but if I have a massive genoa already will the code zero add much value?

Or is the best solution not to mess with any of it and just get a whisker pole so I can sail downwind better with my existing Genoa?

Any insight or musings would be much appreciated

[ChrisJHC]

To be competitive, you’ll need a spinnaker, although many clubs run a “non-spinnaker” division as well.

Note that if you’re doing “upwind/downwind” racing, half the race will be dead down wind so a spinnaker will be better than a Code Zero.

Check the Notice of Race as some of them don’t allow asymmetric spinnakers.

Finally, running downwind under a properly filled symmetric spinnaker is a beautiful thing!

[Tupaia]

Asymmetric.


To stay competitive you will need to take the code 0 down when not in use anyway as it will affect your windward performance.

[danstanford]

The rating systems seem to do a pretty good job balancing out the impact of various sails so it should come down to what you want to use. If it is windward-leeward racing then either asymmetric or conventional symmetric will probably be pretty close on course with the assy being much less labor intensive when you are short handed.

[cal40john]

Here's an article by a sailing pro.

"The code zero is a new addition in recent years. On IRC it rates as a spinnaker as its mid girth is over 75% of its foot. However, these are nearly genoa like shapes and are used for light air reaching, where a normal spinnaker could not be hoisted as the wind is too far ahead. So instead of reaching with your jib, you hoist this sail, which is likely at least twice as large as your Jib. "

Near the end of the article he compares asymmetric and symmetric spinnaker choices. Basically he says the IRC rules allow a bigger asym so should be competitive, but he believes above 15 knots of wind a symmetrical will be more competitive. (planing boats always asym.)

[jsk]

Thanks so much guys - you are awesome!

What are your thoughts on the whisker pole? Would you get a whisker pole even before getting an asymmetrical spinnaker?

Or would you get the asymmetrical instead of a whisker pole?

[jt11791]

Originally Posted by jsk

Thanks so much guys - you are awesome!

What are your thoughts on the whisker pole? Would you get a whisker pole even before getting an asymmetrical spinnaker?

Or would you get the asymmetrical instead of a whisker pole?

It depends entirely on what class you want to race in. If jib-and-main class, then you need a whisker pole, if spinnaker class then you don't need a whisker pole.


Personally, I'd get the asymm and not worry about a pole.

[kirklkjb]

The class you are competing in should drive your selections. If spinnaker class, Then ask around about any additional rating penalties for an asymmetric vs symmetrical spinnaker.
Take your time. Sails are expensive. Get your sail plan thought out and talk to a sailmaker or two. Talk to the winners in the fleet you want race in.

[thunderhoof]

Although it is a little complicated to rig we find an asym rigged so that a spin pole at the tack can be used to bring the tack up and back when sailing deep. The advantage is that with the tack at the sprit you can set a tight luff and sail as close as 70 degrees AWA and with the tack at the pole end the sail can be flown almost DDW with the advantage of having a larger legal (measurementwise) sail area than a symmetrical chute. The complication is that foreguys must be rigged to the tack in addition to a tack downhaul to the sprit.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jsk

I know this is a common question… But looking for some new advice please. Boat is a 2000 Beneteau 361 that I am beginning to race. Right now we are Jib (Genoa) and Main only. Genoa is 150% and drives the boat.

Am struggling to decide whether I should get an Asymmetrical with furler, code zero with further (I have a custom bowsprit that I could install) or just get a whisker pole for my Genoa.

Asymmetrical would be awesome… But I would need to put it up and take it down each time I use it.

I can leave a code zero up – but if I have a massive genoa already will the code zero add much value?

Or is the best solution not to mess with any of it and just get a whisker pole so I can sail downwind better with my existing Genoa?

Any insight or musings would be much appreciated

Your best choice, in my opinion, is an asymmetrical spinnaker. Get a large one, all purpose shape, your sailmaker can help you decide, and learn to hoist and dowse it.

A code zero, in my view, is not beneficial for your boat. It is a reaching sail and you already have a big reaching sail (your 150% genoa) and the code zero is not as good on a downwind leg, so it buys you very little. The assym, on the other hand will be excellent on a downwind leg.

Be cautious about using the spirit. Most racing rules will heavily penalize that spirit and the shape of your hull (the bow overhang) means you don't need to extend the tack of the spinnaker so far out ahead of the forestay.

Learn to hoist, jibe, and dowse the assym without out a sock or snuffer. It is not hard and these are skills you need for racing.

[Moana Bella]

Asyms are easier to manage than symmetrical spinnakers, especially with limited crew numbers (and experience). On a 36, you might want to consider the benefit of less weight with a smaller crew and go with the asym.
But here is another thought. Many races such as we have here in Aus - mid week, twilight series etc, don't allow spinnakers at all. And even those races that do, will generally have a cruising division which don't allow spinnakers. If you are just starting out in racing, its not a bad idea to start in the easier division, especially since it may take some time to establish a regular crew. There's nothing like spinnakers to get a newbie crew over sideways.
If you think about racing - you are really always racing against yourself, due to the handicap system. So to win races, what you need to do is find a way to outperform your normal position in relation to the fleet. That is easiest to do in light airs - which happen often enough in most areas, and tend to leave the fleet drifting with their stiff, heavy carbon racing sails and lots of crew. If you have a lightweight, full belly headsail that still complies as a genoa, you can generally get going - easily with limited crew (and experience) and outperform relative to your "normal" place in the pecking order.
I have seen this work really well - even on the club training boat, which is always full of newbies. We ended our season with a party entirely stocked with wine we won through the series!

[girdasso]

There are three questions you have to address before making a decision. First is what sort of races are you planning to do. You can check racing rules at your club and what penalties apply for a code zero and asymetrics.
Do you have a regular crew that can handle pole and spinnakers or are you going to race short handed sometimes? . An asymetric and bowsprit are easier to handle and needs less experienced crew.
As you are just starting racing I would go for a whisker pole and race for a while before graduating to a bowsprit and asymetric which is the rig that most of the serious racing boats go to in our area

[alctel]

Honestly you'd probably be better posting this on sailnet or sailing anarchy, they are more sailing and racing focused respectively.

Off the top of my head I'd say an asym, as for most around the buoy races you'll be hard on the wind half the time and ddw the other half, while the code 0 excels at reaching (it'd probably be better for a long distance race like swiftsure or round the county)

Also agreeing with the guy that to be competitive you'd be taking down the code 0 upwind anyway so as not to disrupt the wind over the genoa

[donradcliffe]

If you are racing in a jib and main fleet, you need a whisker pole to be competitive. Period. Whisker poles are usually not penalized for being longer than J, and you will want about 125% of J with your 150% genoa. Unless your PHRF rating is under 30 or the wind is under 6 knots, wing and wing with a pole will be faster than reaching back and forth downwind.

Just got home from the Tuesday nite jib and main races, with 25 boats on the starting line. We were fourth across the finish line, and probably corrected out second. We rounded the weather mark about 200 yards ahead of a sistership with a 141 rating. We set the pole and headed for the leeward mark 2 miles ahead. The other boat tried reaching back and forth with the genoa and main on the same side. We rounded the leeward mark half a mile ahead. What goes up has to come down.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by girdasso

There are three questions you have to address before making a decision. First is what sort of races are you planning to do. You can check racing rules at your club and what penalties apply for a code zero and asymetrics.
Do you have a regular crew that can handle pole and spinnakers or are you going to race short handed sometimes? . An asymetric and bowsprit are easier to handle and needs less experienced crew.
As you are just starting racing I would go for a whisker pole and race for a while before graduating to a bowsprit and asymetric which is the rig that most of the serious racing boats go to in our area

A bowsprit is not necessarily linked hand in hand with an asymmetric spinnaker; it is quite acceptable to use an asymmetrical spinnaker and tack it to any convenient fitting at the stem of the vessel.

The bowsprit extends the tack attachment out ahead of the boat and is very useful, especially for sport boats or boats with plumb bows, but it comes with a steep handicap penalty. Under most rating rules it is assumed that the spinnaker girth is increased the same amount as the length of the sprit, so a boat with a spirt is rated as if it is carrying an oversized spinnaker when it is actually probably not, and with a normal boat that has some bow overhang the spirit is not needed. For a new racer the attaching the tack of the asymmetrical out to the end of a spirt adds rigging complexity and is less easy for the crew to manage.

Of course if one uses the sprit to enable the carrying of a bigger spinnaker in order to achieve higher planning speeds on broad reaches, as many modern boats do, it makes sense, however a boat like a Beneteau 361 will not achieve those flashing speeds even with a huge spinnaker; it does not have the hull shape.

The simplest solution for a new racer is a standard size asymmetrical spinnaker and hold off on installing a bowsprit.