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**skipmac** · 08-10-2012, 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

If it's just basically epoxy why would it present any more of a problem putting an anti-foul over it than normal?

And if it really lasts 10 years that's a lot less build up than if one is using a hard bottom paint every couple of years.

I'm just asking as my bottom probably needs to be stripped because the last owner used hard paint each year. So afterward I will have a fresh bottom and have to decide the way to go.

If it does last ten years then buildup shouldn't be too much of a problem but as you found on your boat, more frequent application of hard paint can certainly require an occasional stripping.

So it comes down to the big question, does it work for ten years? Since epoxy is used as a waterproof barrier coat I would think that after a fairly short time the copper exposed to the water would be depleted requiring a sanding or some other fairly aggressive action to expose fresh copper. Since it doesn't seem practical to sand the bottom with the boat in the water then seems like periodic hauling would be required, negating some of the savings (except for you northern guys that have to haul every year anyway).

Maybe the vendor can chime in with comments on this issue.

fstbttms · 08-10-2012, 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

I've noticed it's always bluer around the bottom-cleaning diver too; or redder, sometimes blacker or whiter ... depends.

Which tells you one of two things:

1.- You need to find a new hull cleaner
2.- You need to switch to a less ablative paint

I recognize that it is the fashion for some here to take unprovoked swipes at hull cleaners, but the reality is that certain anti fouling paints simply cannot be cleaned without creating a "plume" of color in the water. Especially if these paints have been allowed to become even moderately foul. Keeping the paint on the bottom of the boat where it belongs is as much the boat owner's responsibility as it is the diver's.

Blue Crab · 08-10-2012, 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

... but the reality is that certain anti fouling paints simply cannot be cleaned without creating a "plume" of color in the water.

Yepper, that was my point. Pollution plain and simple.

Reality. Worldwide.

I suspect you don't even need lead weights with all those heavy chips on your shoulders. Peace, bro.

Wish you'd spend all that anger higher up the marine decision chain.

No nukes! No open sewers to the seas!

fstbttms · 08-10-2012, 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

I suspect you don't even need lead weights with all those heavy chips on your shoulders. Peace, bro.

Wish you'd spend all that anger higher up the marine decision chain.

Your idea of "peace" is taking a pot shot at hull cleaners? I though the anger was supposed to be directed at those higher up on the marine decision chain.

No chips or anger here. But clean boating begins with you and me. You can blame others for water pollution all you want, but you and I need to be part of the solution, not part of the problem as well. That's reality too.

Blue Crab · 08-10-2012, 08:21

Okee doaky.

Ewan Clark · 08-10-2012, 11:06

In response to Skipmac - there have been copper/epoxy products that needed aggressive sanding from time to time to expose fresh copper, and it is fair to say that this did remove some of perceived advantages of them. Copperclad by Scott Bader resins in particular comes to mind.

But our Coppercoat is different - the epoxy base is "weaker", for want of a better word. It slowly dissolves away, at a rate of about 5 microns per year, and constantly exposes fresh copper.

Some boats do benefit from an initial burnish (to expose the copper mixed with the resin), but after this they are left alone. Certainly burnishing every 3 or so years is not what we would recommend or expect, and most of our clients tell us they never burnish it.

Those that lift each year as a matter of course simply pressure wash off any growth. Those that stay in usually dive (or pay a pro diver) to scrub the hull annually.

If Coppercoat did need abrading every year there is no way we'd sell what we do, and the yards and boat building companies we supply wouldn't be using or recommending it.

I hope this helps to explain one of the key differences between Coppercoat and the various other superficially similar sounding systems.

**skipmac** · 08-10-2012, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan Clark

In response to Skipmac - there have been copper/epoxy products that needed aggressive sanding from time to time to expose fresh copper, and it is fair to say that this did remove some of perceived advantages of them. Copperclad by Scott Bader resins in particular comes to mind.

But our Coppercoat is different - the epoxy base is "weaker", for want of a better word. It slowly dissolves away, at a rate of about 5 microns per year, and constantly exposes fresh copper.

Some boats do benefit from an initial burnish (to expose the copper mixed with the resin), but after this they are left alone. Certainly burnishing every 3 or so years is not what we would recommend or expect, and most of our clients tell us they never burnish it.

Those that lift each year as a matter of course simply pressure wash off any growth. Those that stay in usually dive (or pay a pro diver) to scrub the hull annually.

If Coppercoat did need abrading every year there is no way we'd sell what we do, and the yards and boat building companies we supply wouldn't be using or recommending it.

I hope this helps to explain one of the key differences between Coppercoat and the various other superficially similar sounding systems.

Hi Ewan,

Thanks for the additional information.

Not a concern for me since I am based in FL, but reading between the lines I assume that for the northern boaters that haul every year there is no issue with Coppercoat like with traditional hard bottom paints that lose effectiveness when out of the water for a period.

Regards
Skip

fstbttms · 08-10-2012, 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan Clark

Those that stay in usually dive (or pay a pro diver) to scrub the hull annually.

Can you supply any anecdotal evidence of your product's performance from the San Francisco Bay Area? Do you actively promote this concept of needing annual cleanings only to the customers who buy, and the yards who apply, Coppercoat in California?

I have been cleaning hulls here for over 18 years and have never come across an anti fouling coating of any kind (yours included) that would stay anything approaching reasonably clean between annual cleanings. In fact, my experience is that Coppercoat does not have superior anti fouling properties as compared to most high quality copper-based anti fouling paints and therefore fouls at a greater rate and is subsequently more difficult to clean. It disturbs me when those who make, sell and apply anti fouling coatings make broad generalizations about the maintenance of their products. Generalizations that are often based on product performance in low-fouling regions and are frequently useless elsewhere.

I'm not here to bash you or Coppercoat, but my job is made much more difficult when experts such as yourself give our mutual clients advice that I would consider to be bad.

lateral · 08-10-2012, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Can you supply any anecdotal evidence of your product's performance from the San Francisco Bay Area? Do you actively promote this concept of needing annual cleanings only to the customers who buy, and the yards who apply, Coppercoat in California?

I have been cleaning hulls here for over 18 years and have never come across an anti fouling coating of any kind (yours included) that would stay anything approaching reasonably clean between annual cleanings. In fact, my experience is that Coppercoat does not have superior anti fouling properties as compared to most high quality copper-based anti fouling paints and therefore fouls at a greater rate and is subsequently more difficult to clean. It disturbs me when those who make, sell and apply anti fouling coatings make broad generalizations about the maintenance of their products. Generalizations that are often based on product performance in low-fouling regions and are frequently useless elsewhere.

I'm not here to bash you or Coppercoat, but my job is made much more difficult when experts such as yourself give our mutual clients advice that I would consider to be bad.

+1
This is the kind of evidence I rate. The men who work at the coal face who have no barrow to push & obviously have synapses firing other than those required to sell product.

My use of cu powder was to use a relatively non-ablative product, minimising harmful leeching, and combine it with a barrier coat until I find a better solution. If it requires extra elbow grease, so be it. Aqua -epoxy doesn't tick any boxes for me. So it aint going on.
Fstbtms- is there any substance to this nano stuff?

BTW my daughter helped research staff on ultrasonic AF for the Aust. navy. Her Phd was on accoustic cues attracting marine organisms to settle in certain places. ie repopulating reefs.

not much help to me!
I think protuberances on a hull on a moored boat in current produce the frequencies
that encourage settlement.

fstbttms · 08-10-2012, 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lateral

Fstbtms- is there any substance to this nano stuff?

Much too early to say, as there are no commercial applications of this technology being used as an anti fouling in the real world, to my knowledge.

My personal opinion is there isn't an anti fouling "silver bullet". Whether there ever will be one remains to be seen.

sailorboy1 · 08-10-2012, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Much too early to say, as there are no commercial applications of this technology being used as an anti fouling in the real world, to my knowledge.

My personal opinion is there isn't an anti fouling "silver bullet". Whether there ever will be one remains to be seen.

Maybe there isn't a silver bullet, but the thing is that each time an anti-foul thread starts you jump on it loke someone was stealing your puppy or something! But your experience is only for the SF area and doesn't apply to us in completely different type of water conditions. Some of us don't even have a need for a diver at all.

fstbttms · 08-10-2012, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

Some of us don't even have a need for a diver at all.

Gee, really? Thanks for the news flash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

Maybe there isn't a silver bullet, but the thing is that each time an anti-foul thread starts you jump on it loke someone was stealing your puppy or something!

What you consider my jumping on each thread like someone had stolen my puppy (or whatever) is simply a hull cleaning professional telling you what's what, because as I know from my time on this forum and on the docks, there is a sh*t-ton of bad information about anti fouling paint out there. Many, many boaters don't have a friggin' clue about how it works, how to maintain it, what alternatives exist and what to realistically expect, performance-wise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

But your experience is only for the SF area and doesn't apply to us in completely different type of water conditions.

Some truths about hull cleaning are universal. Some are region-specific. I have never said that everything I post here applies to everybody in every situation. But I will tell you this- there is nobody on this forum that has more experience in the day-to-day in-water maintenance of anti fouling paint than I do. You may not like my opinion but I guarantee it is an expert opinion.