Collision and Dismasting

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

-[sailboats] without a properly installed passive radar reflector they are invisible to radar.

I routinely and reliably pick up sailboats on radar and am not sure where this often-repeated assertion comes from. Perhaps older radars were worse or were routinely misadjusted. It does depend on sea state. My radar is 15 years old and not particularly large or elaborate.

Active AIS price is a fraction of the cost of the custom arches, biminis, dodgers, swim platforms and other assorted bling.

First of all, to be fair, I don't believe that SailorBoy's vessel had much in the way of "bling."

I am not sure that active AIS is particularly useful because many vessels either don't have receivers or don't utilize them (particularly lower-budget fishing vessels and tugs). Radar, with an active (human) radar watch being kept, is the more valuable piece of electronics, IME. I use it all the time and I especially use it at dusk. No commercial fishing boat can evade my radar even if they turn off their AIS and run dark.

[Sundial]

So happy to hear that you two are okay! What a way to ring in the new year.

[lateral]

I have had two "wake ups" lately. I tends to fall into patterns of attentiveness. Weeks of no sightings dulls my attentiveness. Not in the same variables, in broad daylight, but illustrates, senses can be fooled.
In the gulf I saw a triangle of sail some 15nm+ miles off starboard beam. They were heading across our path with wind on starboard quarter, we were stb beam reaching. I thought it would be interesting to see after time how our paths converged, as we could lay destination on current heading, and having little else to occupy myself. After an hour it was becoming evident that they were laying as well, with poled out genoa to windward. They were on the poop partying. I thought, well I'm stand on, and in a good position to take evasive so I will leave it until last minute. I couldn't believe that in this empty ocean this could occur, with 50m and closing it was obvious that if they headed up and we maintained we would be gunwale rubbing. So, I blinked first and headed up hard and slid behind their stern, close enough for them to pass snacks. They instantly resumed course, refilling genoa, and raised glasses. I guess somewhat belligerent of me, but I am always curious as to the outcome of these interactions and how people will respond.
Second was a rec fishing boat that was drift fishing, with major separation that I assumed was stationary, only to find out ten minutes later we were about to run down.
All in broad daylight! Bring on the RADAR to enhance my situational awareness!

[5BTM]

This would be in Sept of 78, going from Gulf of Kutch (or as we were calling it after 108 days in the most miserable place on Earth, Gulf of Crotch) somewhere near Socotra, making abouth 7 knots because of the southwest monsoon.

The first ship in 12 days, collision course, I have the right of way: no response to a VHF call, Aldis flash or five short blasts. That is me in the picture, Chief Officer took the photos to document the encounter, just in case.

[5BTM]

<<I am not sure that active AIS is particularly useful because many vessels either don't have receivers or don't utilize them>>

By the same logic there is no need to install flashers on cars.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

<<I am not sure that active AIS is particularly useful because many vessels either don't have receivers or don't utilize them>>

By the same logic there is no need to install flashers on cars.

I agree with you, mate. If you can afford it, and most modern cruising sailboats owners can, it is just another layer of safety you can organize for the wary. If someone is not wary, not inclined to keep a safe watch, well, you still have to maintain an effective watch, whether or not there are non-watch keepers out there. I have to confess, I am not shy to use the radar, either. I love real data, fresh from the eyeball.

Ann

[boatman61]

I my case I did not have radar or AIS.. the 200+ ton fishing vessel doing 10kts had radar but was only maintaining an AIS watch.. allegedly.

[mvweebles]

There was a recent thread on watch-standing. My takeaway from the sailors who contributed is they keep the best visual watch possible. I do not recall a significant reference to radar. Many sailboats either do not have radar, or if they do, the screen is not easily viewable by the helmsman.

Here's the bottom line on this tragic accident: If either or both vessels had radar; and if either or both radar sets were being monitored by a watchstander, this accident would NOT HAVE HAPPENED. All it takes is for one vessel to avoid the accident in this instance.

For some reason, sailors abdicate the responsibility to have radar and assume the other vessel should be able to see them, will have AIS, and/or will respond to VHF. That's f'ed up. A sailboat has the ability to control their own destiny by spending $5k on a decent radar and making sure it's viewable from the helm station. It is by far the best protection from getting run down at night.

[SailingHarmonie]

I have had the misery of driving in Miami for the past two months. If I had maintained the expectation that all of the other cars on the road actually obeyed the rules of the road, I'd be dead tens times over.

Why would I expect the water to be even the least bit different?

One of our favorite overheard CH16 conversations is a tugboat with a long tow who's barge got rammed by a fishing boat with the entire crew sleeping under autopilot.

You have to assume that everybody out there is trying to kill you. And ALWAYS give good graces to those who are not (which is most, by and far away).

[sailorboy1]

So I saw the report from the fishing boat today. They say:

- they were trawling for shrimp
- they didn't see us on radar
- we didn't have on nav lights on before or after the collision
- they turned to avoid us
- we appeared intoxicated

pretty much everything damming to us and not them that was possible to say

[Jammer]

Previously, it hadn't occurred to me that I might need a dashcam on my boat to serve as an impartial witness in the event of a collision.

[davil]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

So I saw the report from the fishing boat today. They say:

- they were trawling for shrimp
- they didn't see us on radar
- we didn't have on nav lights on before or after the collision
- they turned to avoid us
- we appeared intoxicated

pretty much everything damming to us and not them that was possible to say

==================================

they were trawling for shrimp

SO?
-----------------------------------------
- they didn't see us on radar

SO?
--------------------------------------------
- we didn't have on nav lights on before or after the collision

expected answer/excuse
----------------------------------------

- they turned to avoid us?

obviously didn't work!!!

---------------------------------------

we appeared intoxicated

right, maybe they were intoxicated!!! for their actions!

=========================================

no matter how you slice it

the insurance companies will find the more economical way to solve their interests.

Will be interesting to see the track record of this fishing boat, may (or not) be a history?

Yours being sailing for so many years without incidents is on the positive side of the ledge.


There are Maritime lawyers will love this case, either side, unfortunately too expensive and the insurance companies will find it easy and cheaper to settle.

Hard to stomach the injustice of this, time to be grateful having survived potentially deadly event, a couple of years from now, still pissed will be a memory.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

I will add my relief knowing that everyone is ok.

A couple of comments and suggestions, based on personal experience of being the duty officer on a bridge of a 8000 ton freighter and almost running down a sailboat off Rhodos.

- we are only responible for our actions.
- others vessel's inaction do not relieve one of the responsiblity to act negligently.
-sailing vessels must keep clear of vessels engaged in fishing.
- assume that fishing vessels are always fishing

Based on my incident I can tell that;

-sailboats are practically invisible to the naked eye before dawn and especially after dusk.

- without a properly installed passive radar reflector they are invisible to radar.

-Sloops appear as gray triangles, making it difficult to quickly ascertain their heading.

-nav light at deck level or buried in toe rails are useless.
height of lights 5 feet, distance to horizon 3 miles.
height of lights 40 ft, distance to horizon 8.2 miles.


- a proper lookout is not sitting in one place, boat on a steady course.
either change your view or change course routinely.

When on watch I always had the Aldis handy.

Five rapid flashes aimed at the other vessel at night or illuminating your sails are a quick way to get attention.

Active AIS price is a fraction of the cost of the custom arches, biminis, dodgers, swim platforms and other assorted bling.

To add what you said. A crude oil tanker lying a hull in the middle of nowhere on a clear moonless night without any lights whatsoever is pretty hard to see until you are a couple of cables away and it begins to block view to stars. Dunno how difficult it would be in worse weather.. Just a reminder it goes both ways

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Previously, it hadn't occurred to me that I might need a dashcam on my boat to serve as an impartial witness in the event of a collision.

Despite dashcam or whatever 90% of collisions on sea end up 50/50 quilty. Thou proving other party unlit at night with low viz would make a difference.. On a clear weather doupt it..

[Marathon1150]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

I have had the misery of driving in Miami for the past two months. If I had maintained the expectation that all of the other cars on the road actually obeyed the rules of the road, I'd be dead tens times over.

Why would I expect the water to be even the least bit different?

One of our favorite overheard CH16 conversations is a tugboat with a long tow who's barge got rammed by a fishing boat with the entire crew sleeping under autopilot.

You have to assume that everybody out there is trying to kill you. And ALWAYS give good graces to those who are not (which is most, by and far away).

In addition to loving sailing I also love to ride fast motorcycles - a strange combination. Current ride is a Ducati S4r. I have been riding for about as long as sailing and I learned from reading everything available when I first started to ride that it is best to think of oneself as invisible. Other drivers don't see you or they don't understand that a motorcycle is a motor vehicle and might be moving, possibly quickly.

I try to do the same when sailing, particularly after being t-boned by a recreational fisher. I was sailing and he was trawling. I saw him and the person on watch and assumed that they would change course. By the time that it was clear that they were not changing course it was too late for me to do anything. I was wrong - the ColRegs and common sense indicate that everyone is responsible for avoiding collisions no matter who has the right of way.

Regarding AIS, I strongly agree with others that it is a low cost, high value way to avoid collisions. While sailing at night over the past 8 or so years, our AIS has several times helped us identify deep seas that might get too close to our course. Without exception they responded to a VHF call and without exception they offered to change course. I was amazed.