Boat buying blues (Rant)

[john61ct]

Many things are inherent trade-offs.

e.g. Carrying capacity for water and supplies, and (IMO) bluewater security means heavy displacement and full keel or at least coral-protected prop / rudder.

That goes against many sailing performance factors, like light winds, pointing upwind. At least at the low size / budget end.

So you need to find the compromise point, me I almost discard the latter in favour of the former.

I'm finding it very useful to set firm limits on a few key parameters, to greatly **reduce** the list of boats you'd actually go look at.

Of course that then means be willing to travel to buy one that fits your needs.

____
wrt your "sleeping activities" is that just being coy about room for sex?

Personally just having any living space at all on such a small boat is fantastic

But vertical space in the V-berth is asking a lot, only going to find out by looking in person.

if the partners are alone you can of course do it anywhere cockpit has unlimited headroom 8-D

[thomm225]

There's another strange thing about some small boat vs large boats.

I have a Bristol 27 at the moment with a dodger and most all the equipment needed for cruising (and what it doesn't have I can easily afford to buy)

I'm now looking at a 1975 Pearson 10M (33') with a 29' waterline that displaces almost twice what the Bristol does, but some some reason I feel more "secure' when on the Bristol

You are down low in the water on the Bristol 27 and protected by the dodger especially from wind and spray. On the Pearson, you are much high up and it feels you are on it rather than in it

I haven't sailed the Pearson. I've just been on it in it's slip a few times last fall and now on it a few times on the hard.

The Bristol 27 is full keel 4', 19.75 waterline and the Pearson 10M is fin keel 6' and with the 29' waterline so it should out point the Bristol by at least 20-30-degrees

[taxwizz]

If you can find one, I suggest the Ontario 28 or the Ontario 32.
Excellent boats and within your price range.

[DMCantor]

Don't give up! There are SO MANY great boats out there, it just takes some time to find the right one. I concur with the idea that you can find people successfully cruising on a huge variety of boat sizes and types.

There are lots of Pearsons and O'Days and Ericssonsj and Catalinas, etc. from the 70's and 80's in the 30-35 foot range that you can buy for less than 30k. Any of these would fit what you describe as the next step in your boating adventure. Most of them sail just fine, and have enough room for a couple and their gear.

There are certainly some creepy brokers, but most of the ones we've met have been helpful and knowledgable. Throw out the bad apples and interview someone else.

Good Luck!

[evbeck]

Enjoy the search - as the real frustration comes with mechanical and other challenges as an owner. Actually that part is interesting too but for yard bills on things we can't do. Best of luck.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Unfortunately a lot of people offering advice on these forums don't know what they are talking about other than parroting what they have read in this book or that blog. There are some folks here who have done a lot of sailing both coastal and offshore. What you need to do is sort the wheat from the chaff. One thing I have discovered in my sailing, especially off the beaten track, is that people are cruising, happily and successfully on just about kind of boat you could mention - fibreglass, steel, even wood, long keel/fin keel, ketch/sloop/cutter, etc, etc. I have done a couple of counts of the boat lists for events like the ARC and Sail Indonesia and it is remarkable how much variation there is in boats being used.

Don't get me started with brokers. Some are great and some you can't trust. Sorting is again the hard bit.

Great post and excellent summary of trying to select and buy a boat.

I used to be a broker and for a while still had contacts and names that I would recommend as reliable and honest (which did NOT include the guy I worked for at the time). However it's been too long and when I bought my last boat ran into the same broker problems as everyone else. Called one broker and gave him a spec list: cutter rig, center cockpit, modified fin keel. He sent me a listing for a full keel, ketch rig, aft cockpit. Needless to say he didn't get any further calls from me.

Best thing I can say is just persist and IF you find a good broker, then let him/her do the work. If not, then just keep looking and try to avoid spending a lot on travel to see boats if you aren't sure of the results. If you can, plan trips to areas with lots of boats for sale (south FL, Annapolis, New England) and if you do end up somewhere and the planned boat inspection flops the get on the phone and set up some appointments. I had plenty of drop ins over the years and always had a list of boats that were available on short notice for viewing.

[Kenomac]

Expect to be looking at plenty of old, worn-out boats in your price range. Either increase your budget x2-x3 or downsize your expectations.

[redhead]

We searched for 4 years - went to about 10 different states looking. After flying JFK-SFO one broker told us upon arrival that the boat we had flown out to see had been sold the day before. (and tell me why he didn't call us and tell us the night before we boarded the flight?). Losing that boat made us buy this boat (in much worse shape) because we were afraid of losing it. That's all right, this is our boat now.

What you are ranting about IMHO is the learning curve. Who on the internet knows the facts and who doesn't? What boat is best? No one here or anywhere else can answer that. Pearson's are great (slow-ish) boats, I had one I loved, but you don't know me from Adam. My ideas of fast or slow are mine - this whole boating thing is subjective when you step away from the top 3 or 4 latest production boats.

Brokers will guide you to what will put the most money in their pocket - that's just a fact of life. If you do as Jim and Ann Cate did, present them with your criteria and be prepared to walk if they don't show you what you want you might get lucky. Craigslist, EBay, Boats for Sale by Owner, you know the drill. It's just putting in the time to get what you want.

I feel your frustration because I was there 4 years ago. We spent a fortune looking and I recommend you don't do that. If you've been doing as much research as your post indicates you know what you want and how to find it. The good news is that we found a boat that we fixed up and are cruising now. Not the boat I thought I wanted, but what the hell.

Much good luck to you!

[akprb]

First a shameless plug for my broker free boat!

https://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/63799

Second I did read the whole rant :-)

Having been a broker I know how the 30k crowd goes. The commission is 3k and when split with the house and then the IRS the broker may make a thousand bucks for his effort.

That does not attract to pros you are longing for and just has to be accepted.

Great and entertaining thread you started! Well done!

Do not discount this part of the process. It’s fun if you make it fun and decades later you will still be telling the stories and isn’t that what this is all about???

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by shortnsalty41

This is more of a rant than anything else, however, I remain hopeful that maybe something in the form of advice can deliver me some guidance.
I have the "Boat Buying Blues". As I saved and worked, worked and saved and finally came to the point four long years after the sale of our first "learning sailboat" that we are ready to buy our first cruiser I am really discouraged.
For some of us, the types that come to these forums to seek knowledge we have not yet gained in the sailing world, a lot of things remain a mystery. The sailing world is full of so many varying opinions and styles that as an inexperienced sailor we are for lack of better words "lost at sea".
"You need a full keel", "You need a fin keel", "These pocket cruisers will take you around the world", "You can't do any kind of bluewater in a boat that size" etc. etc...yada yada. In a way, it's all contradictory because we see it with our own two eyes thanks to the wonderful world of Youtube and it's never-ending list of sailing channels.
Now I know we all have to make up our own minds but it is hard when you try to research to understand and learn what you can before making a very expensive mistake and find a ton of varying opinion rarely supported by fact.
I think back years ago to one of my favorites, "You need a fin keel in order to outrun storms".
From when I first decided that sailing was the way I would do my boating I have learned a great deal from reading, forum members, video and finally hands-on sailing, boat repairs running aground, dragging an anchor etc. however I am only still a greenhorn. Maybe just a shiny one nowadays.
Now ready to cast off into the next phase of sailing for me I find myself caught in a nasty channel, during a storm, with shifting tides and sharks all around. Yes, sharks or in other words "boat brokers". I am sure there are many out there that are as good and trustworthy as coast guard rescue swimmers but the ones I have encountered are as slippery as eels.
Like the one I made an appointment with to see a Tartan 37 and when we arrived were told: "that boat is in the other marina across the street and before we go there let me show you this..." Boat that costs 30,000 dollars more than the one you called about, is falling apart, is completely the opposite of what you're looking for and in reality isn't worth half the price of the Tartan as you can see here from the loose stanchions, sun-rotted blocks, ancient rigging, blah , blah , blah. That was just one broker.
I did say this was a rant. But I am trying to make it kind of entertaining to read although probably failing as much as I am to find a boat.
So here I am "shanghaied" in my search for: A boat I can live on with my better half for at least the 6 months a year we will be sailing her, for cruising Florida (keys and west coast) and of course the Bahamas. So yes I can pretty much get away with a lot of different boats with the right preparations and safety gear while keeping a careful eye on the weather but I am not looking to spend a fortune when I know three to four years down the road we will be looking to go further and need something better yet again for the years we might spend sailing to the Carribean or aiming towards the Pacific.
We have looked at a Cape Dory 28 (love it but the V-birth would cancel out a lot of "sleep habits" shall we call them and from what I read are slow and maybe not great in light wind), Pearson 30 Wanderer (loved it until we saw someone is trying to hide a lot with paint, got the boat for 2000, oops that slipped out, and is trying to sell the boat for 18,000), a sweet Southern Cross 28 (so salty and so so small inside and out), Pearson Triton loaded (also very small).....let me chime in also small is OK if it can also be Fast however we can do without speed if we get a certain level of comfort instead...Can we have our cake and eat it too? We saw so many others, Tartan 27(strong contender), Catalina 27 (just for the fun of it... and talk about small V-birth), should I mention the boats I was ready to throw my money into that have been listed for God only knows how long and now that I call to go see them have mysteriously in the same day "gone under contract" and "just got closed on but I have this boat that you showed no interest in and costs 30,000 more than the boat you are asking about".
In the last few puffs of my hot air that come steaming out of my hot head, I know there are a lot of good boats still out there. One thing that is making the search so hard is for a while longer we are continuing to work so I can not go chasing boats in other states and I sure as hell can not trust a "boat broker" to lure me to another state to see this "solid boat" with "nothing wrong with it" that is "turn key" with an engine that has only "9857 hours" on it.
If anyone made it this far I admire you for your will and patience and leave the following challenge to you : A cruiser/racer sailboat that is 30k or even better 8k, roomy enough for "sleep habits" in the V-birth, would prefer fast although could live with slow if it were like an Allied Seawind 32 ketch, is ALMOST turnkey and upgrades can come as they are afforded not needed, so not really looking for a project unless its 50 bucks needing only 5k and 6 months and of course no drafts over 6 feet and 6 feet would be pushing it as the Bahamas can become our permanent cruising grounds so 4.5 or less would be ideal.
P.S. I am sorry. eac ye:

as I see it you're searching for a boat before you're ready. you don't care for opinions not based on facts? well then gather the facts and form your own opinion. my girl is in the process of buying a performance blue water cruiser that she will sail over the horizon on and though i'll miss her dearly I plan to join her often. she asks my opinion on boats which I offer freely but only after a ton of fact checking she has decided on a swan. yep, it's speed she's after most. why? to shorten passages and dodge storms. uh huh. deep draft fin keel. a few other things that contribute to seaworthiness come before comfort although I've yet to see an uncomfortable swan. she's been sailing about five years now and moving up from her 14 foot dagger board sloop. and recently has been crewing on a fast 40 during races working a very complex foredeck. she's been up my 55 foot mast in a bosun's chair fetching a wayward halyard while under sail and helps me clean my bottom when we're out at the islands. point being, she's been on a serious quest for REAL knowledge for a few years now and finally feels that she's informed and experienced enough to find the boat she knows she'll be happy with.

oh yeah, one other thing. she read these forums once as I suggested and never came back. so much for my advice, huh?

so all in all I don't see that you're ready to buy your perfect boat until you've done research relying less on opinion and more on fact finding. as to these forums? you won't find knowledge here. you'll only find what others know. you find knowledge, yep, you guessed it, in the sailing world.

[AKA-None]

Not mentioned is that a fin keel will tend to turn faster and a full keel will tend to stay on course easier. A light boat will tend to move around more than a heavy boat. All else remaining the same. Ymmv

[trmitc]

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/72784
This is the perfect boat for you. She just took us from Massachusetts to the Bahamas and before that circled the Caribbean. Very well constructed boat and fast for her size. Also in turnkey condition. She has a vberth but I can honestly say it wasn't too much of an issue. That is what the cockpit cushions are for anyway..haha.

[Classicsailboat]

My read of what you are saying is that you are really looking for an excuse not to buy.

[Ferrari]

Think of buying a boat the same way as buying a new suit!
Made to measure or off the peg. Cheap materials or Expensive, heavy duty or light weight, stylish or plain. On sale or sticker price. Pants fit but jacket tight.
Every day wear or Sunday best. Dry clean only? Free alterations? Straight cut or Cuffs. Two button or three? Pocket flaps or not. Inside jacket pocket left or right.
I could go on but i’ll leave some latitude for others, I’m sure you get my drift.
Pun intended ,
The point is you’ll buy a suit you “Like” and your “wife” approves of because you need one.....
Personally I’m able to handle the grief that naturally comes with owning a boat that I liked and have grown to love, than put up with the same crap from a boat I never liked in the first place.
Hope this helps.
F

[MJH]

As you have already proclaimed that this is your introductory boat and you foresee upgrading to the next one, don't go overboard with your want list...Keep it simple. Sailboats are all about tradeoffs, you can't have it all.

Continue to look at as many boats as you can as well as doing your research. Yes, all of us have our prejudices from past experience and stories we have heard...listen but weigh the stories for reasonableness. Don't expect the broker to find your boat, you must know what you want. Brokers are earning a living and will try to sell you what they have in inventory or know about; it doesn't hurt to look but just remember what is on your shopping list. Patience, it took me five years of research and visits to locate my current boat but I knew what I wanted, not a specific make/model but design features.

For a sailing yacht, the hull design, rigging, and sails are #1 priority; the diesel engine is a close second. Keep it simple. Lead fin keels are best for maneuverability and minimal maintenance compared to iron keels, as are straight shafted boats versus saildrives that require more periodic maintenance as do V-drives. Overhauled diesels are only as good as the mechanic that did the job. Full keels are better for long cruises as they hold the course line better.

Get some books from the library on sailing yacht designs, Practical Sailor Magazine is an excellent source for straight talk on what is good and what isn't derived from testing...they also do boat reviews and have a recommend listing.

Also consider where you are going to keep it: on a trailer, marina $lip, or mooring buoy. Some marinas have long waiting lists and all are expensive when considered over time.

Good luck on you search.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH