Boat buying blues (Rant)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by akprb

...Having been a broker I know how the 30k crowd goes. The commission is 3k and when split with the house and then the IRS the broker may make a thousand bucks for his effort.

That does not attract to pros you are longing for and just has to be accepted.

Time and time again we hear about problems with brokers. It’s simple economics folks. A broker is running a business. In any business you have to match resources with expected revenue. A constant mismatch will put you out of business pretty quick, so a broker dealing with a lower-end boat likely CAN’T spend much time working the sale.

Now, I feel your pain. When I was buying my last boat I dealt with a number of useless brokers. Mostly they weren’t bad, just useless to me as a potential buyer. They knew little or nothing about the boats listed. They rarely spent the time to follow up on the questions I was asking. And they acted as a barrier to the person who did know the answers to my questions. In a few cases I was outright lied to, costing me both time and money.

Personally, I wish brokers would simply refuse to take on clients they know they can’t service well — but I realize that is asking too much. And I also realize brokers face pressure from sellers to take on boats they otherwise don’t want to represent. Part of this is driven by the gatekeeper role brokers have over Yachtworld — if it was opened up to non-brokers this might relieve some of this pressure.

Anyway, we all feel your pain. There are lots of boats out there, and your list of needs is perhaps not fully attainable. Boats are compromises. You have to learn what is vital for you vs what you can live with. Good luck with the journey. It’s all part of the fun.

[Tillerjockey]

Personally I like the Endeavour 35. They can be had for under 30K. Draft is shallow enough. It's a good sailing boat that will go to windward when you need it and has enough accomodations for 6 months aboard. They have a foam core sandwich construction instead of balsa so no rot, although delamination is possible. You really can't believe anything a broker says, you have to go see them yourself. It can be a frustrating process. I looked at a lot of boats that brokers said were in very good condition and weren't. Sometimes after driving for hours to see the boat. It's just part of the process. Most of the used boats are just suffering from neglect. It really depends on how much work you want to do on a used boat. Good luck.

[wolfgal]

Fantastic rant! As this is your first boat, you are navigating in many different layers of unknown waters all at once. Yes, it can be overwhelming: I know, I'm there too, am looking for my FIRST gal!

It is all so very exciting to research boats, to learn about hull design and their different characteristics, to find out more about how well they are built (where, by whom, in what...), how they behave in different waters/situations, what years to avoid/look for, what weak points have been recorded, how to fix stuff, and the fun part: interior layout. And then there is that part where, while keeping in mind the engine hours and the simplicity/complexity, and the 'stuff' that comes with it, we juggle with how the individual boats stand up to its ideal (which can bring us to tears, yes).

You may agree how, although the researching/learning part is fascinating, the whole process of seeking feels as though it is taking much too long (in my case, it definitely is!).

And there is another thing first-time boat owners deal with: imagining that moment when we do find HER. Every time I do, it only takes a second for my throat to seize up, the blood to drain into my feet and for those 'what if's' to pile up into a mountain range! The very idea of taking the LEAP, as we say, is downright daunting!

All this to say, hang in there! I hope you find your gal!


And if I may, i noted something to cherish in your quest: You are not alone. You've got your significant other, and the two of you can scope the boats (and the V-berths) together. That's something HUGE to smile about!

The best of luck to you!

[OBT]

So here's my story and I'm sticking to it.
in 1987 I went to the Pacific Seacraft factory in CA to see the 37's being built and said to myself "someday I'm going to own one of these".
After 35 years of sailing the coast of Maine and beyond, and after 14 years and 15,000 NM of sailing my most recent boat a wonderful Allied Seawind I ketch, I found my PS 37.

We worked a deal that my wife and I couldn't refuse. $22,000 less than the asking price. This boat is loaded. The owner's wife is no longer able to sail and the boat has been on the hard for over 2 years. The last year of use, the owner invested $40,000 in upgrades. The engine had only 880 hours on it.

The survey was glowing. The owner said that he wanted to make sure that when he transferred the boat into our care, that it was in good shape.

We scheduled a launch date of May 24 with an in the water final sea trial scheduled for the next day. After helping the owner prep the boat for launch, May 24 came and the boat was launched. Upon launch the engine had a catastrophic failure. The seized water pump destroyed the cam shaft. Try to find a mechanic on the coast that has availability in May or June - good luck. The engine was finally finished and started/tested last Thursday July 19. Ran like a champ. That afternoon, we started out on what we thought was going to be a final sea trial. Not so much. The expensive Balmar alternator wasn't putting out enough voltage. There was also a slight bearing noise that seemed at first to be coming from the alternator. Then it seemed like mis-adjusted valves. Soon the 4-cylinder newly rebuilt Universal engine was jumping and vibrating. In neutral the engine again purred like a kitten. The transmission was toast. Back to the dock. New alternator and transmission were ordered (all this on the dime of the owner as we would not transferred title until an acceptable sea trial). The transmission was removed and replaced with a new one last night and tomorrow we will be doing a new sea trial and unless the sun falls out of the sky, we will own the boat tomorrow afternoon. We've lost over half our sailing season, but this particular boat is worth waiting for.

The plan is to sail this season along the coast and next year perhaps take the boat to the Azores and then back to the Caribbean for the winter then back north. If not, then spending time along the coast of Maine and maritime Canada isn't tough duty either.

Sailing the Coast of Maine and Beyond

[minou]

Just a thought...
It should be more about comfort.
The more time you spend on the boat the more comfortable you want to be.
Heavier the displacement the less you get tossed about lighter displacement the more like a cork bobbing on the water.
Take a ride on a light displacement speedy fin keel can out run the storms.
Take a ride on heavy displacement and see difference and settle on somewhere in between.
Light boats can pound jump shake and rattle while in the same condition in the heavier your wine glass may ride nicely and you will feel more rested.
Out running what some may consider a storm in one boat Mau be nothing more than an exciting brisk sail in another.
Go to a fairly exposed marina on a moderately windy day if you can find one and note the action in the rigging.
You don't want a brand flailing and jumping. You may want one smiling and gently rolling.
But hey. Some people like to pound it out [emoji16]

[shortnsalty41]

Well not our first boat however it is only to be our second sailboat. First boat was a Catalina 22. Had a lot of fun with it but it was just a day sailor. Sailed it for about two years before we couldn't justify a slip fee on such a more or less weekend toy. Learned a lot though from fiberglass repairs, teak slavery, sail repair by hand, to quickest way to free your leg bent at the knee from between the steps of a tiny swim ladder while be dragged behind the boat after freeing her from a grounding on a sandbar and so much more.
Now its time for 6 on 6 off sailing as we slowly squeeze into an early retirement plan. So the line goes.."Your gonna need a bigger boat."...(sorry it is Sharkweek)
I just have not been on actual sails on so many various boats to really be able to zero in. I do know what I love and want however until the day comes I sell the house and liquidate, the Hinkley's, Passport's and boats of the like will remain in my dreams. I'm just not at that point in my life yet and maybe never will be.
So yes any boat that's comfy will do for just coastal Florida sailing and as long as I have a liferaft and a radio I will sail her to the bahamas. I know I do not really want another Catalina and wouldn't buy a Hunter because frankly there are so many for sale it would be hard enough to get any money back so I really couldn't justify putting any money in. Its amazing how many each company can sell and yet they have been branded with unfair reputations that cause some people to avoid them.
Once again thanks to all for chiming in and the words of encouragement.

[john61ct]

I'd start right off assuming not getting anything back on resale.

If you do, then that's gravy, but not a factor I'd take into account choosing candidates.

In fact by that logic you should be able to find a nice example for a miracle-bargain price now.

The net total cost per year of ownership while you're enjoying her is the key metric.

It's an expensive consumable not an asset.

[MartinAdelaide]

[QUOTE=AiniA;2681984]Unfortunately a lot of people offering advice on these forums don't know what they are talking about other than parroting what they have read in this book or that blog. There are some folks here who have done a lot of sailing both coastal and offshore.

There are many at my yacht club who told me my 18'er was to small to sail from here (Adelaide) to Kangaroo Island.
I just ignored them because I've know many smaller vessels have done much further trips.
People cruise the world in all sorts of boats.


Here's an article from Yachting World on the subject.
https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruisi...g-yacht-113123

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by shortnsalty41

This is more of a rant than anything else, however, I remain hopeful that maybe something in the form of advice can deliver me some guidance.
I have the "Boat Buying Blues". As I saved and worked, worked and saved and finally came to the point four long years after the sale of our first "learning sailboat" that we are ready to buy our first cruiser I am really discouraged.
For some of us, the types that come to these forums to seek knowledge we have not yet gained in the sailing world, a lot of things remain a mystery. The sailing world is full of so many varying opinions and styles that as an inexperienced sailor we are for lack of better words "lost at sea".
"You need a full keel", "You need a fin keel", "These pocket cruisers will take you around the world", "You can't do any kind of bluewater in a boat that size" etc. etc...yada yada. In a way, it's all contradictory because we see it with our own two eyes thanks to the wonderful world of Youtube and it's never-ending list of sailing channels.
Now I know we all have to make up our own minds but it is hard when you try to research to understand and learn what you can before making a very expensive mistake and find a ton of varying opinion rarely supported by fact.
I think back years ago to one of my favorites, "You need a fin keel in order to outrun storms".
From when I first decided that sailing was the way I would do my boating I have learned a great deal from reading, forum members, video and finally hands-on sailing, boat repairs running aground, dragging an anchor etc. however I am only still a greenhorn. Maybe just a shiny one nowadays.
Now ready to cast off into the next phase of sailing for me I find myself caught in a nasty channel, during a storm, with shifting tides and sharks all around. Yes, sharks or in other words "boat brokers". I am sure there are many out there that are as good and trustworthy as coast guard rescue swimmers but the ones I have encountered are as slippery as eels.
Like the one I made an appointment with to see a Tartan 37 and when we arrived were told: "that boat is in the other marina across the street and before we go there let me show you this..." Boat that costs 30,000 dollars more than the one you called about, is falling apart, is completely the opposite of what you're looking for and in reality isn't worth half the price of the Tartan as you can see here from the loose stanchions, sun-rotted blocks, ancient rigging, blah , blah , blah. That was just one broker.
I did say this was a rant. But I am trying to make it kind of entertaining to read although probably failing as much as I am to find a boat.
So here I am "shanghaied" in my search for: A boat I can live on with my better half for at least the 6 months a year we will be sailing her, for cruising Florida (keys and west coast) and of course the Bahamas. So yes I can pretty much get away with a lot of different boats with the right preparations and safety gear while keeping a careful eye on the weather but I am not looking to spend a fortune when I know three to four years down the road we will be looking to go further and need something better yet again for the years we might spend sailing to the Carribean or aiming towards the Pacific.
We have looked at a Cape Dory 28 (love it but the V-birth would cancel out a lot of "sleep habits" shall we call them and from what I read are slow and maybe not great in light wind), Pearson 30 Wanderer (loved it until we saw someone is trying to hide a lot with paint, got the boat for 2000, oops that slipped out, and is trying to sell the boat for 18,000), a sweet Southern Cross 28 (so salty and so so small inside and out), Pearson Triton loaded (also very small).....let me chime in also small is OK if it can also be Fast however we can do without speed if we get a certain level of comfort instead...Can we have our cake and eat it too? We saw so many others, Tartan 27(strong contender), Catalina 27 (just for the fun of it... and talk about small V-birth), should I mention the boats I was ready to throw my money into that have been listed for God only knows how long and now that I call to go see them have mysteriously in the same day "gone under contract" and "just got closed on but I have this boat that you showed no interest in and costs 30,000 more than the boat you are asking about".
In the last few puffs of my hot air that come steaming out of my hot head, I know there are a lot of good boats still out there. One thing that is making the search so hard is for a while longer we are continuing to work so I can not go chasing boats in other states and I sure as hell can not trust a "boat broker" to lure me to another state to see this "solid boat" with "nothing wrong with it" that is "turn key" with an engine that has only "9857 hours" on it.
If anyone made it this far I admire you for your will and patience and leave the following challenge to you : A cruiser/racer sailboat that is 30k or even better 8k, roomy enough for "sleep habits" in the V-birth, would prefer fast although could live with slow if it were like an Allied Seawind 32 ketch, is ALMOST turnkey and upgrades can come as they are afforded not needed, so not really looking for a project unless its 50 bucks needing only 5k and 6 months and of course no drafts over 6 feet and 6 feet would be pushing it as the Bahamas can become our permanent cruising grounds so 4.5 or less would be ideal.
P.S. I am sorry.

Hi there,
It's all a learning curve, try to embrace it in that spirit. Right now, you really don't know what kind of sailing you'll ultimately end up doing, or what kind of boat would best for that mission. Like the choice of a career, buying a boat isn't a once-only choice that you'll be stuck with forever if it isn't right for you. Give yourself a break, you're learning and growing. The important thing now is not to spend too much for too little boat. Schmexperts who tell you that there's only one route (fin keel, full keel, etc.) are flying in the face of the fact that people sail the world every day in the most varied vessels. It's all a balance (read that compromise) between the money you have to spend for the creature comforts that are right for you. A buyer's broker can help in your search, as long as it's understood contractually that his commission, if any, will come out of the selling broker's commission, and you are free to negotiate for sale by owners on your own without incurring a commission, period. Selling Broker's commissions jack up asking AND selling prices, and you'll find better deals (but less inventory) with for sale by owners. You'll find a boat you can fall in love with, and that is a crucial event. Owning a boat is a love affair that some call unrequited, but it isn't. Our vessels sail better than we could ever hope to, and deliver us home. Buy that boat, and get about sailing. It will all flow from there. Keep us abreast of your progress, and fair winds.

[vonotto]

Just thought I would put my thoughts down here as well. This coming week I have decided to make the 8 hour drive to RI to look at one of the model boats I have always wanted. I have not called anyone yet (I will later today). I am on the fence but leaning toward calling a few brokers up there and seeing if they would take on the job as "buyers broker". The research I have done says I have nothing to lose and it doesn't cost me anything. As this is my first "large" boat purchase I think I would be more comfortable paperwork wise with help.

[john61ct]

Yes, I'm looking for a source for boat buying contracts, templates.

I assume that's one thing a buyer's broker offers?

[ramblinrod]

I think every new boater encounters the dilemma, “This isn’t making g any sense.

I know we did.

It’s because, in general, boating doesn’t make any sense.

A small portion of the population are drawn to the water. As many detest it. The rest are indifferent. Some can live a gypsy life at sea. Some want to be routed for n a monster house in a suburban neighbourhood.

Step 1. Determine the size of boat (smallest) in a that will meet your needs.

Step 2. Establish 4 budgets:
- initial purchase
- initial repair
- ongoing maintenance
- operating cost.

For a 30 foot boat, and the initial price can be anywhere from free (derelict project that will cost you dearly) to $180,000 (new that won’t come with much cut stuff and will depreciate rapidly).

As you can see, there is a wide range. The things that affect initial price are:
1. Size
2. Age
3. Condition
4. Popularity

For a 1985 30’ boat in very good condition, you are in the neighborhood of $25 to $35K. If you find one listed for $15K that has been for sale for 2 years, it will not be in good condition. (Somebody smart would have already bought it, if it was in good condition at that price.)

If you buy a boat worth $15K, plan on spending at least $20K more to make in it as good condition as the one season hat was truly worth $25K.

Step3. Start looking at boats in your size, age, price range. Check Yachtworld for boats with lines and interiors that appeal to you. Then start going
To look at them.

Step 4. When you have found a boat that appeals to you, appears to be in good condition, and the owner seems sincere, put in an offer of what you believe it is worth, based on your research, conditional on survey, mechanical inspection, sail and rigging inspection, and sea trial.

Step 5. Follow through on the inspections. If any unforeseen issues are discovered, you can walk away, or attempt to negotiate a lower price based on cost of typical DIY repair. The owner will not likely accept the full
Pro repair cost, because you are not buying a new or like new boat, (so you shouldn’t reasonably end up with one when paying a much less than new price).

Step 6. When all goes well and the purchase goes through, follow through on the survey “must do” and “recommended” repairs. Sail the boat pretty much as is for a year before making any significant improvements. (It is the way it is for very good reason as determined by some pretty smart boat experts who designed and built her,and for reasons you may not yet be aware.)

Step 7. Keep good care of her, fixing things PROPERLY, as needed, with PROPER improvements as desired, in order that you realize optimum enjoyment and reward for money well spent.

Step 8. At resale time, realize that you will not be compensated for regular maintenance and repairs, other than you will not have devalued the boat through neglect. You will be compensated a percentage of improvements that set your boat apart from the average example of that model, age, condition.

Everything else equal, boats are depreciating assets. They are not generally sound financial investments. Keep in mind your frame of mind whe you were purchasing, when you are selling. Look for a purchaser will to pay the right amount for the right boat, rather than someone looking for “the deal of a lifetime”.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes, I'm looking for a source for boat buying contracts, templates.

I assume that's one thing a buyer's broker offers?

I imagine, but typically the selling broker insists on using his. The company has been through problems that arise for years and have developed a contract that avoids issues. They are also contracted with the seller as a company and using other than their own contract may be an issue. But play hard ball and feel free to mark it up any way you want.. they want to sell boats!
Just say "that's my offer".
I have never given the amount of deposit broker's request. They only need a deposit to ensure you are serious.
If you are buying from a private party then that is something else, and having a contract will be good. Things your contract should have:

-Make sure what ever you use has a time limit on all offers or counter offers.
-Inspection/survey right to walk away at no penalty to you. (even if the seller agrees to repair the problem)
-contract dependent on your ability to find financing at acceptable terms.

[JeffH]

Great rant![emoji41]

What I get, behind the actual words, is that you haven’t yet done the real work of preparing yourself/yourselves (everything I’m saying means both of you working in agreement) to buy your next boat.

Have you AND your sweetie brain-stormed, reviewed, revised & agreed on a 5-year plan for what your lives are going to look like & how said boat fits into those plans? Have you done the work Jim Cate outlines above in post #11? (I didn’t see anything about galley specs, tender, gear for handling anchors & rodes, etc. Things of interest to those with less upper body strength. Are you both sure that you are in agreement? Have you written it all down?)

Armed with this list, go look at "nearby” boats for sale (& boats not for sale whose owners are willing) with an eye toward [1] modifying your criteria; [2] eliminating as many boats as possible from your shortlist of candidates & [3] making a comprehensive pros/cons list for every boat on your shortlist.

When you get your shortlist “short enough,” arrange to charter an example of each one for at least 2 weeks (a month is better), again with an eye to eliminating unsatisfactory candidates as well as strengthening the pro/con list for remaining candidates. I promise you you can make it worth the time & expense.

Since you said this next boat is to be another learning boat, be sure to include a section in her logbook where you faithfully record _everything_ that you like about her, everything that you don’t like, how you might cure what you don’t like, what you might/do want in your “next but 1” boat. Then you’ll be ready for that boat hunting foray.

Happy hunting. Please keep us updated

[hamburking]

I agree with the OP about brokers. They are in it for the money. A good boat requires a good owner. And a good owner is happy to show you their boat for sale as a private sale. Stay away from brokers.

I am also looking for that special boat that will take me on my next adventure. There is no perfect boat, only compromise.

https://www.puff4sale.com/