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Old 02-05-2015, 16:11   #91
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The case law

Granholm v. TFL EXP., 576 F. Supp. 435 (S.D.N.Y 1984) :: Justia

ColRegs

Rule 5 - Lookout Return to the top of the page

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
Jack dale, the case you have quoted is a well known one, but if you read it, it's clear that the fault was not in simply being either solo or the need for a nap, but involved other matters such as failing to site the ship which he should have done and other failures.

And I'm always curious why people such as yourself quote the rule five and either only quote or in your case highlight the words 'shall at all times' and seem to ignore the rest of the sentence.

Others quote, the COLREGS are 'black and white', the COLREGS don't need 'interpreting' etc etc etc. when clearly, there is both debate and legal discourse on rule five and others.
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Old 02-05-2015, 16:50   #92
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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There are four dead sailors who relied on their auto pilot to safely navigate around a hard object.
Well, autopilots have been driving boats straight into things ever since they were invented... It's usually not the fault of the autopilot, as they are notoriously ineffective at navigating "around" anything :-)

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Either they set an island as a way point or set the A/P on a heading then went to sleep. All drowned when they ran into a steep cliff shore with seas running.
We'll never know what happened aboard AEGEAN that night... But with a crew of 4 aboard, I find it hard to imagine that they made a conscious decision to all go to sleep simultaneously, and leave the boat proceeding Not Under Command, in the sense that a solo sailor grabbing some sleep would have done...
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Old 02-05-2015, 17:05   #93
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

Farm sail-
"referencing the entire regs is extremely vague. that is like pointing to a bible when someone asks where it says "thou shall not kill""
Side note: The Bible never said that. The King James distortion, well known to be chock full of mistranslations, is where that comes from. The original text says "Thou shalt not murder" and yes, the original Hebrew and later Greek texts all make a big distinction about that. It is only unlearned Christians, still following the KJ version, who still think there's a commandant against killing. (Nothing personal, you should fire whoever taught you that one.)


About the only error that I know of in the KJ concerning sailing, is the reference to the Red Sea instead of the correct Sea of Reeds, wrt Moses and the exodus from Egypt. Not much sailing discussed in there at all.
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Old 02-05-2015, 17:34   #94
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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Farm sail-
"referencing the entire regs is extremely vague. that is like pointing to a bible when someone asks where it says "thou shall not kill""
Side note: The Bible never said that. The King James distortion, well known to be chock full of mistranslations, is where that comes from. The original text says "Thou shalt not murder" and yes, the original Hebrew and later Greek texts all make a big distinction about that. It is only unlearned Christians, still following the KJ version, who still think there's a commandant against killing. (Nothing personal, you should fire whoever taught you that one.)


About the only error that I know of in the KJ concerning sailing, is the reference to the Red Sea instead of the correct Sea of Reeds, wrt Moses and the exodus from Egypt. Not much sailing discussed in there at all.
Actually the LXX is clearly 'kill', not murder. 'Murder' is an English word in any case. Essentially it matters not what words are used either in the LXX or Hebrew. The words are synonymous but quite clear and it refers to 'unlawful killing' and what we call 'murder' in English.

But in any case, why are you continually going back pages to something that has moved on and on and on and on. RULE 5 is what he was referring too. RULE 5.
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Old 02-05-2015, 17:38   #95
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Well, autopilots have been driving boats straight into things ever since they were invented... It's usually not the fault of the autopilot, as they are notoriously ineffective at navigating "around" anything :-)

We'll never know what happened aboard AEGEAN that night... But with a crew of 4 aboard, I find it hard to imagine that they made a conscious decision to all go to sleep simultaneously, and leave the boat proceeding Not Under Command, in the sense that a solo sailor grabbing some sleep would have done...
I thought the Aegean was most likely run over by a large ship?
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Old 02-05-2015, 17:57   #96
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Jack dale, the case you have quoted is a well known one, but if you read it, it's clear that the fault was not in simply being either solo or the need for a nap, but involved other matters such as failing to site the ship which he should have done and other failures.

And I'm always curious why people such as yourself quote the rule five and either only quote or in your case highlight the words 'shall at all times' and seem to ignore the rest of the sentence.

Others quote, the COLREGS are 'black and white', the COLREGS don't need 'interpreting' etc etc etc. when clearly, there is both debate and legal discourse on rule five and others.
The courts are usually involved in Colregs cases AFTER an incident.

I am well aware of what the rest of rule 5 says and means. I have close 10,000 miles of bluewater passage making - none of which involved the lack of a watch. My standing orders call for a horizon scan every 10 minutes.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:03   #97
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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The courts are usually involved in Colregs cases AFTER an incident.

I am well aware of what the rest of rule 5 says and means. I have close 10,000 miles of bluewater passage making - none of which involved the lack of a watch. My standing orders call for a horizon scan every 10 minutes.
ok. Yes, 'after' an incident. yes. did anyone suggest the courts are involved for any other reason?

And yes, 10 minutes sounds sensible. Mine are 15 minutes, but I'm in pretty non congested waters.

I'm not really understanding the purpose or intent of your reply? AT ALL.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:03   #98
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

Rustic, if you haven't read last week's newspaper, it is still news. Sometimes I catch up slowly to things posted in a thread, the world isn't sequential.


As to the words...thank you, the scholars I've spoken to, both Israeli biblical scholars and US Catholic Church clergy, are both fairly certain the word used is "murder" not "kill". And that's the way the scholarly translations have taken to translating it.


I didn't "go back", I addressed the point when and as I encountered it. Much like any debris I hit in the water, no matter how long it has been floating there, it's still news to me until I hit it.


As the Jihadis would say, stop corrupting The Word. And as the scholars in the older Judeo Christian sects (pretty much all of them) would say, with a few more authors, we could call the Bible(s) an anthology.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:05   #99
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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Phil. Bit of a thread drift but, There's an interesting podcast I hear once, maybe someone has a link, about a guy that recently navigated around the world using no electronics or navigation equipment. He navigated by the angle of the ground swells, angle of the surface currents and waves, sea and air temperatures, upper and lower level cloud types and directions, types of sea life and bird life closer to land and even calculated his approximate latitude by humidity when he heard a hatch squeak on it's rails that didn't normally squeak. He managed to hit his landfalls within 50M after crossing oceans. He was trying to tune into a lot of the old techniques sailors used before modern navigation (before the sextant) and found it possible. It's true modern navigation dulls the senses and often modern sailors are more tuned in to the chart plotter than the clouds. Good on you for staying tuned to your natural senses.

RC. Fortunately the colregs are black and white. I don't think there's any areas that are open for interpretation and yes that are rigid which is a good thing in my book. Rule 5 clearly says a proper watch should be maintained at all times (abbreviated) which doesn't mean all times except when napping or ducking below for a cuppa. They could be rewritten to include those phrases but then they just become useless. I've had a couple of very near misses with vessels not following the colregs so I'm all for sailors knowing and adhering to them as much as possible. In the case of solo sailors on long passages they can adhere to all except rule 5, which is good enough for me and I attempt the same when solo or fully crewed. I'd hate to see that rule enforced by law as some of the other rules currently are as it would mean the end of a long and beautiful chapter of sailing, forged by the likes of Slocum, Chichester, Mortissier, Taberly, Dumas et al.
The person is Marvin Creamer, I had a sailor friend give me a CD with all his stuff on it. It is extremely interesting. I read everything from "cover to cover." The person that gave me the stuff knew him personally. Here's a link to his website. Around the world with no "modern" instruments, not even a compass.

marvincreamer
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:14   #100
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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A Robotic Helmsman... is the answer for the Solo Sailor of Tomorrow.

Yes, a Robotic Helmsman (above) is a little bit on the satire side of things but our technology is here and has been for over twenty years. We have had auto land aircraft since the 1970's. I have flown military aircraft with -- autopilots, that's completely coupled to nav. and does it all; also, terrain & aircraft avoidance. We have cars that are being tested/ developed to drive themselves as you sit in the back.

I was shopping/ looking at stand alone AIS systems and the available features. They have collision alarms and can track five different vessels that present a collision hazard(s). I can assume that higher ended avionics systems on high dollar (mega yachts, etc.) ships do it all, and similar to high dollar aircraft.

Today, it's all about $$$ cost and how integrated you'd want your system engineered to fit your needs. If I was designing it, I'd want it to be as close as possible to the full up systems we have in aircraft. I'd start off with a fully Navigational Autopilot, AIS/ Radar Monitoring with Auto Steer Way from Traffic. Complete Vessel Monitoring -- Operating Vitals, Hull Security, Intruder Security, Up Dating Weather, including Extreme Weather Warnings. Emergency Transponder Output when selected or auto when the hull is filling up with water at a set depth level.

I'm just thinking off the cuff and I'm sure that the older salts would have other ideas that they'd want to spec. out with their fully automated Robotic Helmsman .

Avery
If they can make a car safely drive on the highway at 60 mph without human help they can surely do it on a sailboat at less than 10 mph. I predict in less than 5 years we will be able to buy a robot helmsman that will safely sail our boats, and in 10 years they will be cheap enough for me to consider one.
When I say sail I should probably say steer, lookout, avoid other traffic, and wake us when they need our help to make a major change in sail trim or other important stuff it can't handle.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:14   #101
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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Rustic, if you haven't read last week's newspaper, it is still news. Sometimes I catch up slowly to things posted in a thread, the world isn't sequential.

What Newspaper? What news? What are you talking about?

As to the words...thank you, the scholars I've spoken to, both Israeli biblical scholars and US Catholic Church clergy, are both fairly certain the word used is "murder" not "kill". And that's the way the scholarly translations have taken to translating it.


I didn't "go back", I addressed the point when and as I encountered it. Much like ay debris I hit in the water, no matter how long it has been floating there, it's still news to me until I hit it.
'Israeli biblical scholars' ? That's odd. Why not French, Italian, English, American, biblical scholars? But, 'Israelie'?

NO biblical scholar will support the word being used is 'murder' in the way your insisting. The word is ENGLISH. It does not exist in either the LXX or in ancient Hebrew. As I said before, the words used, in both ancient manuscripts are synonymous. The 'meaning' to be translated and contextualised is 'murder' or 'to unlawfully kill' is the most accurate. And whilst I don't pretend to be a scholar, I do have a Bachelor in Theology with a major in Coin Greek. Hebrew was not my strong point, but I certainly can understand these basic constraints of Hebrew to English.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:15   #102
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

Thanks mate.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:18   #103
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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Thanks mate.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:50   #104
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Re: Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

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I thought the Aegean was most likely run over by a large ship?
Nope, although that was the initial speculation... But that's not what the investigation by US SAILING determined, and the SPOT data makes it appear pretty obvious they crashed straight into North Coronado Island...

Report Sheds Light on Deaths Aboard Aegean - Inside Practical Sailor Blog Article








What's very curious to me, is that I can find no reference to the final report of the investigation by the US Coast Guard, which was "ongoing" at the time that US SAILING released their own findings...

It's been a few years, now... One would think the CG would have wrapped up their investigation by now, no?
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Old 02-05-2015, 19:03   #105
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Advice, How to Maintain Watch & Sail When Solo Thru 24 Hr's. (+) Time Periods ?

Jon. No doubt right about better to be sailing than motoring. Interesting to note that Vito Dumas also ran up on a beach within 100M of the finish after a solo circumnavigation in 1943, although technically he had finished and was just heading to his home port, but he was sailing and struggled to find a knife in time to cut the autopilot loose ( lashed helm) after the sound of surf woke him from his slumber. Definitely need to be careful around the hard stuff!

Ps, dont know wether to laugh or cry at the spot product advertisement on that first pic. Spot - live to tell about it...
Chart zoomed out to far to see the island?
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