Canadian COVID-19 News

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I don't know of anyone who matters [in Canada] saying that the unvaccinated are responsible for most or all of the spread.

Correct. I'm responding to the commentary here, not trying to change Canadian health care policy.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Is the reason for this sentiment meant to be punitive on the part of folks or feeling they are financially subsidizing those unvaccinated I wonder?

Uh, we ARE financially subsidizing the unvaccinated. They are disproportionately occupying a large number of very expensive hospital, and especially ICU, beds. I have to think that anyone who disputes that either never took, or failed, Statistics 101.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Tara Moriarty, an associate professor,and infectious diseases researcher,at the University of Toronto, has been studying excess deaths in Canada,and how they relate to COVID-19.
She is the lead author for the working group of a peer-reviewed study [1], commissioned by the Royal Society of Canada, on excess deaths during the pandemic.

[1] "Excess All-Cause Mortality During the COVID-19 Epidemic in Canada” ~ by Tara J. Moriarty et al [Royal Society of Canada Task Force on COVID-19]
➥ https://rsc-src.ca/en/covid-19-polic...emic-in-canada

Recommendations arising from this report:
....
3. Immediately adopt U.S. CDC excess mortality methods for estimating Canadian excess
mortality during the COVID-19 epidemic.

The number of excess deaths reported (all cause mortality) greatly exceeds the numbers of reported covid deaths in most countries.
The CDC uses modified Farrington surveillance algorithms to weight their reports.

This paper (a little dated and somewhat complicated) concerns under detection of Covid deaths.

This concerns the ongoing argument about cause of death (died of covid vs. died with covid or death from covid vs death from other causes), and how to attribute as covid, a greater number of the cases of excess deaths currently not attributable to the covid19 disease itself.

In my view, this paper is a legitimization attempt to normalize the use of an algorithm (a simulation) as a basis for reporting estmated cause of death statistics.

Why don't I trust the CDC and their algorithms?
They were caught redhanded in 2009 fabricating H1N1 case numbers. They had instructed the state medical institutions to stop testing and began posting fabricated case counts. They were promoting the (hastily tested and aproved) vaccine Pandemrix
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/swine-f...overestimated/

High Rates of Adverse Events Linked with 2009 H1N1 Pandemic Vaccine
......an estimated 30 million Europeans were administered the vaccine, after which, more than 1300 individuals who received the vaccine reported onset narcolepsy,........According to the report of adverse events, dated December 2, 2009, there were a reported 3807 adverse events related to Pandemrix, 1138 of which were serious, and 47 of which were fatal. Adverse events of special interest detailed in the report included 141 cases of anaphylaxis, 12 cases of facial palsy, and 51 cases of convulsions, among others.....https://www.contagionlive.com/view/h...ndemic-vaccine

Eight years after the pandemic influenza outbreak, a lawsuit alleging that GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix vaccine caused narcolepsy has unearthed internal reports suggesting problems with the vaccine’s safety. Peter Doshi asks what this means for the future of transparency during public health emergencies

In October 2009, the US National Institutes of Health infectious diseases chief, Anthony Fauci, appeared on YouTube to reassure Americans about the safety of the “swine flu” vaccine. “The track record for serious adverse events is very good. It’s very, very, very rare that you ever see anything that’s associated with the vaccine that’s a serious event,”1 he said.

Four months earlier, the World Health Organization had declared H1N1 influenza a pandemic, and by October 2009 the new vaccines were being rolled out across the world. A similar story was playing out in the UK, with prominent organisations, including the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated.2 “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement.3

Except, it hadn’t....https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948.full

This is one reason why I don't trust the CDC reports, many of which are based on simulations.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Uh, we ARE financially subsidizing the unvaccinated. They are disproportionately occupying a large number of very expensive hospital, and especially ICU, beds.

No need for the "uh" to begin this response.

For what it is worth, not only is this area of policy quite hard to analyze, I was wondering what your opinion was as to the motivation of people to move away from our socialized system.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Is the reason for this sentiment meant to be punitive on the part of folks or feeling they are financially subsidizing those unvaccinated I wonder?

Mostly human nature; when there's a public "duty" or observance and most of us comply, we resent those who don't. Consider line-crashers, speeding, running yellows and reds, etc.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Mostly human nature; when there's a public "duty" or observance and most of us comply, we resent those who don't. Consider line-crashers, speeding, running yellows and reds, etc.

What's the public duty here?

Are you suggesting that people have a responsibility to save the health care system money through their behavior?

So are overweight people on your list? Is that the healthcare equivalent of running a yellow light?

Suddenly, on this one issue, people are taking an interest in health care costs.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by danstanford

No need for the "uh" to begin this response.

For what it is worth, not only is this area of policy quite hard to analyze, I was wondering what your opinion was as to the motivation of people to move away from our socialized system.

I think there is a substantial body of opinion out there that our system is failing us - and it's not wrong. When the wait times for those crippled with knee and hip problems to get replacements is measured in years, there is a sense the system is failing us. Health care is a bottomless pit financially and the public purse is not. As I've said here before, everybody dies once, but the mission of the health care system is, with few exceptions, to prevent death at all costs - and the new drugs, equipment, devices, and treatments are exponentially more expensive than the old ones.

Hence the minority who can afford to pay for their own care (and thus go to the front of the queue) would like more freedom to do so - to the detriment of the majority who would be pushed back.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

What's the public duty here?

Are you suggesting that people have a responsibility to save the health care system money through their behavior?

So are overweight people on your list? Is that the healthcare equivalent of running a yellow light?

Suddenly, on this one issue, people are taking an interest in health care costs.

Some of us have been concerned about ballooning health care costs for a long, long time. In my case that concern goes back to the late 1970's when the models for the effects the Baby Boomers would have on our social safety nets first started coming out.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Uh, we ARE financially subsidizing the unvaccinated. They are disproportionately occupying a large number of very expensive hospital, and especially ICU, beds.

As has been reported. I would like to see proof. Patients with adverse vaccine effects are also occupying hospital beds. I would like to see some verifiable data please. Otherwise you are repeating as fact, what some news agency said that some hospital administrator might have said. And by unvaxxed you also mean the significant number of patients suffering through the two weeks after their first shot (not fair to lump their statistics with the unvaxxed). There is no partiality in these estimates. They seem designed to coerce. Who is actually reviewing the detailed and confidential patient records of those in the ICU wards and compiling these reports? Hint, you won't find that information because it doesn't exist.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

What's the public duty here?

To help blunt the effects of the pandemic by observing the restrictions etc etc. And by getting vaccinated if medically possible.

Are you suggesting that people have a responsibility to save the health care system money through their behavior?

Wow. Thrashing around for more straw...

So are overweight people on your list? Is that the healthcare equivalent of running a yellow light?

Suddenly, on this one issue, people are taking an interest in health care costs.

NO. Not costs.

Do you know what 'pandemic' means? Have you heard that most healthcare systems have been heavily burdened by COVID hospitalizations? Know what 'triage' is? Need a replay of the videos and stories from Italy in spring 2020?

I am confounded by your persistent need to challenge non-existent points. Aren't there enough real ones?

[Scorpius]

From CNN this morning:
Pfizer and BioNTech have begun a clinical trial for an Omicron-specific Covid-19 vaccine. The study will evaluate the new vaccine for safety, tolerability and the level of immune response in up to 1,420 healthy adults ages 18 to 55. Omicron cases currently account for more than 99% of new coronavirus cases in the US, the latest CDC estimates show. Covid-19 cases are also spiking in places like Brazil, where officials in the cities of São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro yesterday announced the postponement of their official Carnival street parades due to the spread of the Omicron variant.


I'm surprised full trials are needed for an Omicron-specific vaccine. Each year the flu vaccine is varied to deal with whatever specific variation is expected that year - and I've never heard of full trials for these variations. I'm surprised the same would not apply to Covid vaccines.

And I was SO looking forward to going to Rio for Carnival this year!

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Is the reason for this sentiment meant to be punitive on the part of folks or feeling they are financially subsidizing those unvaccinated I wonder?

I think ultimately its politcal in nature. We seem to have moved away from the "WE" in the universality in healthcare and to a "ME". As a population we seem to ignore the fact that effectively WE subsidize ALL medical care regardless of the type. People don't seem to mind paying for heart surgery out of the general fund that is healthcare. We generally don't even factor in if the patient has behaviours that resulted in that. but for Covid we seem to want to treat people differently.

Personally I think vaccination is a good thing from a risk perspective but ultimately we have to accept that a certain percentage of the population won't do what we think they should for optimal health outcomes. They need to be treated the same as everyone else.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

To help blunt the effects of the pandemic by observing the restrictions etc etc. And by getting vaccinated if medically possible.
Wow. Thrashing around for more straw...
NO. Not costs.

Do you know what 'pandemic' means? Have you heard that most healthcare systems have been heavily burdened by COVID hospitalizations? Know what 'triage' is? Need a replay of the videos and stories from Italy in spring 2020?

I am confounded by your persistent need to challenge non-existent points. Aren't there enough real ones?

I didn't mean costs from a financial perspective, (though they can be measured that way), I meant costs from a health care provisioning perspective. Costs to health care availability. That's your complaint, no?

I pointed out the inconsistency of being outraged by people who aren't vaccinated, while not being outraged by the decisions of others who form an even greater burden on socialized medicine.

We're not dealing with the same issues from 2020. We do have a vaccine. We do have treatments. We have health care workers who have a greater understanding of covid and it's risks. Which are, by the way, low for healthy people under 65.

We have tools, and people are able to assess their own risks. It's time to get past the finger-pointing, in favor of assuming responsibility for our own outcomes. You want to get vaxxed? Get vaxxed.

We can, and will, be talking about this differently moving forward.

[Stu Jackson]

How I unlearned my anti-vaxx upbringing and started to trust the experts



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...mind-1.6325670


from CBC


The difference between healthy discussion about, well, health in Canadian media and the bothsiderisms in that country to our south is astounding to me.


I think this is a good example.


She writes:


Only three years or so into my vaccine journey, my old fears of the medical community came flooding back. I was suspicious of how these vaccines were supposedly "made in record time."
I found myself in the camp of wanting to wait a few years to see what happened.
Then you know what I did? I stopped doing my own research.
Who am I, a barely Grade 10-educated person, to find information that the professionals weren't finding? Instead I began consuming the research and studies done by people who trained and studied for years in those fields. They could discover the truth much more successfully than any blogger or YouTuber.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I didn't mean costs from a financial perspective, (though they can be measured that way), I meant costs from a health care provisioning perspective. Costs to health care availability. That's your complaint, no?

Health care availability, sustainability, harm to other patients, burnout of medical staff... Cost = money, so it's not the appropriate word, sorry.

I pointed out the inconsistency of being outraged by people who aren't vaccinated, while not being outraged by the decisions of others who form an even greater burden on socialized medicine.

There has always been some grumbling about people ( the poor, the overweight, the risktakers, the drug abusers, etc etc) who don't take better care of themselves taking a disproportionate chunk of health care resources, so you don't really have a point there.

One of the main goals of universal healthcare is to shift from a "repair" service to a "health" service, providing regular checkups, timely advice and small interventions, that keep the population healthier and reduces the number of major interventions required later. Obesity is one of the managed conditions and I think you'll find that in most jurisdictions that have universal healthcare, the rate of obesity goes down. Ditto for other conditions that can later become serious if left untreated.

We're not dealing with the same issues from 2020. We do have a vaccine. We do have treatments. We have health care workers who have a greater understanding of covid and it's risks. Which are, by the way, low for healthy people under 65.

We have tools, and people are able to assess their own risks. It's time to get past the finger-pointing, in favor of assuming responsibility for our own outcomes. You want to get vaxxed? Get vaxxed.

On a per-capita basis, the US COVID death rate is currently somewhere between three and four times that of Canada, depending what source you consult, and Canada's is currently trending down, while the US rate continues to climb. Both are still concerning and not "normal".

Is it possible that you are being premature in your declaration of "endemicity", and underestimating the impact of vaccination rate?

We can, and will, be talking about this differently moving forward.

Yes, soon. But not yet.