Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by cyan

I'll ask you a better question, skipmac, possibly more thread-related:
If you found yourself being tossed in the pitch black, inside a half-flooded, tilted cabin, not sure where your headlamp or companions were, water sloshing around...
Are you sure you could determine whether your damaged monohull had reached a wet but survivable floating equilibrium, or it whether was already taking you and your little air pocket to the bottom in your coffin?

Obviously one can make up an infinite number of what ifs and potential scenarios from probable to possible to ridiculous. Just as obviously for any one scenario the number of variables and resulting options and actions will also approach infinite. To try to argue this point using made made up examples I think is fruitless and even pointless.

The only thing I'm trying to say is that there are arguments for not carrying a life raft. I am not trying to argue whether or not those reasons are sufficient for any specific individual. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to carry a raft or not. Whether or not anyone considers those arguments sufficient or valid for their own situation is their decision.

I have said, my decision is to carry a raft. Others have decided not to. I have said all I have to say on the issue. If you want to read a very long and detailed discussion on the issues and arguments read this thread and revive it with your comments if you like. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ves-57432.html

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by peter57

What is powering that pump? with a boat full of water.

If you're asking about my emergency pumps, 12V battery. Batteries will operate when under water until they're totally discharged or totally shorted. But as a backup I also have a 1 gallon per stroke manual pump.

And two buckets.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Controlling risks is all about balancing and optimizing different possible measures. Of COURSE if you have a raft, you will abandon sooner in the process -- because if you DON'T have a raft, you can't abandon at all! Of course money spent on the raft can't be spent on something else, like a serious dewatering pump. There is nothing wrong with this at all -- normal juggling of risk factors and risk control measures.

But to forgo a raft or EPIRB in order to force yourself to do something, you think you should have done in any case? That's a weird kind of psychological self-management. Wouldn't it be better to just do that thing, rather than giving up your last ditch defense against a watery grave, in order to manipulate yourself psychologically?

Likewise, why would you risk death just to avoid inconveniencing rescue workers? Rescuing is what they DO -- their career and mission in life. I'm sure they would be appalled if they thought that some people were forgoing EPIRBs just to avoid giving them a chance to do their thing.

In my opinion, this is all nonsense which is just a roundabout way to justify not taking the trouble or spending the money to be properly equipped. It's your own choice, but I think it's nuts to go far offshore without either EPIRB or raft.

Besides EPIRB and raft (actually two rafts), I also have a major dewatering pump -- 44,000 l/h -- with fire hose. I take care and spend money to keep my boat in seaworthy condition. EPIRB and raft in no way reduce my other efforts to manage these risks. I would do everything possible to avoid the horror of going into the raft, but I sure am glad I have it there. I sail in cold water, and going into that cold water in case of sinking or fire would be certain death, even with a survival suit.

Next boat will be safer still with multiple watertight compartments.

Hi Dockhead,

Perhaps you missed my other post but let me repeat, you don't need to convince me. I am personally in agreement with all you say and I carry a raft, the largest dewatering setup I can get on my boat, an EPIRB and will be adding PLBs.

I only wanted to point out that some (much more experienced than I) choose otherwise, I understand their reasons and respect their decision.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by skipmac

The only thing I'm trying to say is that there are arguments for not carrying a life raft.

Hi Skipmac, to clarify

There are no "safety management" reasons
...to not carry a life raft!
One can rationalize financial or ergonomics, but those reasons have nothing to do with safety, only priorities .

While excersising that priority is seen as a 'Right' in yachting
....it is NOT in commercial vessels including coastal.

I am glad it is mandatory because it saved the lives of my crew and I.

Maybe those that rationalize, should reconsider their priorities.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Skipmac, to clarify

There are no "safety management" reasons
...to not carry a life raft!
One can rationalize financial or ergonomics, but those reasons have nothing to do with safety, only priorities .

While excersising that priority is seen as a 'Right' in yachting
....it is NOT in commercial vessels including coastal.

I am glad it is mandatory because it saved the lives of my crew and I.

Maybe those that rationalize, should reconsider their priorities.

All I can do is repeat that I agree but that there are better sailors than I that don't agree, including a forum adviser.

[Pelagic]

What makes a "better sailor" in this discussion?

[boatman61]

RUM....!!!

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boatman61

RUM....!!!

LOL...
....Merry Christmas Boatie!

[Cherod]

And plenty of it , ye all have a good ( and for those on board ) safe festy

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

What makes a "better sailor" in this discussion?

Pedantics

[cyan]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Obviously one can make up an infinite number of what ifs and potential scenarios from probable to possible to ridiculous. Just as obviously for any one scenario the number of variables and resulting options and actions will also approach infinite. To try to argue this point using made made up examples I think is fruitless and even pointless.

The only thing I'm trying to say is that there are arguments for not carrying a life raft. I am not trying to argue whether or not those reasons are sufficient for any specific individual. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to carry a raft or not. Whether or not anyone considers those arguments sufficient or valid for their own situation is their decision.

Hi skipmac,

I think we agree on our own safety gear choices, yet you seem to be defending the opposite choice of another sailor who is "much more experienced". I can respect that, yet still disagree that that "more experienced sailor" has made the correct safety decision.

Regarding the fruitless "what if" scenarios, you posed the first one, where the raft might cause you to give up on the fight too early. I countered with one that challenged your initial assumptions of visibility and trouble with awareness of sinking or not. The presence of these "infinite" scenarios begs for an EPIRB and raft... just in case. I doubt that the referenced more experienced guy would disagree. (economics and space are quite different arguments, as have been pointed out)

Your emergency pump sounds quite good!
However, watch out for all that annoying hydrogen and oxygen (even chlorine) from the submerged batteries..

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Skipmac, to clarify

There are no "safety management" reasons
...to not carry a life raft!
One can rationalize financial or ergonomics, but those reasons have nothing to do with safety, only priorities .

While excersising that priority is seen as a 'Right' in yachting
....it is NOT in commercial vessels including coastal.

I am glad it is mandatory because it saved the lives of my crew and I.

Maybe those that rationalize, should reconsider their priorities.

I can agree with that part. There are other reasons to not carry a life raft. In the US, life rafts are not required on all commercial vessels. Water temp where they operate plays a part in it.
I would guess that there are those that are not physically capable of launching and boarding a life raft.

[Cherod]

CM IIAW , I believe it was Taberlay who always advocated not wearing a life belt ( or tied on or whatever ) tragically lost overboard ( when not racing )

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I can agree with that part. There are other reasons to not carry a life raft. In the US, life rafts are not required on all commercial vessels. Water temp where they operate plays a part in it.
I would guess that there are those that are not physically capable of launching and boarding a life raft.

The “ US “ is not everything and more is of little interest to many of us on here .

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Obviously one can make up an infinite number of what ifs and potential scenarios from probable to possible to ridiculous. Just as obviously for any one scenario the number of variables and resulting options and actions will also approach infinite. To try to argue this point using made made up examples I think is fruitless and even pointless.

The only thing I'm trying to say is that there are arguments for not carrying a life raft. I am not trying to argue whether or not those reasons are sufficient for any specific individual. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to carry a raft or not. Whether or not anyone considers those arguments sufficient or valid for their own situation is their decision.

I have said, my decision is to carry a raft. Others have decided not to. I have said all I have to say on the issue. If you want to read a very long and detailed discussion on the issues and arguments read this thread and revive it with your comments if you like. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ves-57432.html

Yes, best safety equipment depends very much on where you sail, proximity to likely rescue effort, type of vessel, sea temperature, maximum wind speed and wave height you could encounter. e.g. Southern Ocean or Equatorial ?

For some an EPIRB attached to life jacket would suffice. For others fire extinguisher, plenty of spares and extensive repair kit would be best.