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Old 22-02-2008, 20:53   #1
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Red and Green All-Around Lights

I want to install red and green all around lights at the masthead (red over green) and can't find any ready made units. Does anyone else run this, and if so how did you do it. I'm having trouble even finding a green all around light. I may have to resort to using two 180 degree lights on opposite sides of a pole but would rather keep it simple with only two lights and two bulbs. I want to do this so that I can run the masthead lights and the deck nav lights at the same time for increased visibility.

Thanks for any help, John
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Old 22-02-2008, 21:23   #2
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Googled it.

Double Stack
Perko 0200GRBDP1

Perko, European Style Nav Lights

John

Interesting, after I posted I noticed that the picture shows green over red. Never heard of that one, maybe it stacks and they got it wrong.
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Old 22-02-2008, 21:54   #3
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John and John,

This gets a bit tricky.

The Rules prescribe that a sailing vessel under sail only may, in addition to the prescribed sidelights and stern light, carry in a vertical line an all-round red light over an all-round green light (Rule 25 Paragraph c).

So far, so good :-)

The 'gotcha', however, is that the Rules also specify in Annex I, paragraph 2. (h) that a vessel under 20 meters in length carrying these lights shall have them spaced not less than one meter apart!

In effect, this means that it's extremely difficult for a small vessel to comply with the Rules. How are you going to mount two all-round lights atop the mast with a 3-foot vertical spacing between them?

One futher note: most of the double-stacked Perko lights are for special signals and/or for backup, e.g., they have two of the same color lights mounted together. I haven't a clue what the green-over-red combination light in the link is for.....perhaps a mine-clearing vessel underway? Or a catamaran sailing upside down? :-)

Bill
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Old 22-02-2008, 23:13   #4
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What on earth is an all round Red/Green supposed to achieve?.... Other than confusion? I have never read or heard of that rule.
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Old 22-02-2008, 23:21   #5
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Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
What on earth is an all round Red/Green supposed to achieve?.... Other than confusion? I have never read or heard of that rule.
Just an example of the amazing foresight that our public servants have
They must have known that rotating masts would become the norm and the problems this would cause with the lights

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Old 22-02-2008, 23:30   #6
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What on earth is an all round Red/Green supposed to achieve?.... Other than confusion? I have never read or heard of that rule.
These are provided in order for a sailing vessel to enhance its visibility when underway under sail alone (where, presumably, it has less maneuverability than vessels under power and it has right-of-way).

Many sailboats use the tricolor atop the mast, which is permitted of sailboats under 20 meters in length and which is used in lieu of the prescribed sidelights and sternlight. Rule 25 (b).

By contrast, the red-over-green all-round lights are for sailboats of any size and are in addition to the prescribed sidelights and sternlight. Rule 25 (c)

Now, aren't you glad you asked? :-)

Bill
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Old 22-02-2008, 23:43   #7
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John and John,

This gets a bit tricky.

The Rules prescribe that a sailing vessel under sail only may, in addition to the prescribed sidelights and stern light, carry in a vertical line an all-round red light over an all-round green light (Rule 25 Paragraph c).

So far, so good :-)

The 'gotcha', however, is that the Rules also specify in Annex I, paragraph 2. (h) that a vessel under 20 meters in length carrying these lights shall have them spaced not less than one meter apart!

In effect, this means that it's extremely difficult for a small vessel to comply with the Rules. How are you going to mount two all-round lights atop the mast with a 3-foot vertical spacing between them?

One futher note: most of the double-stacked Perko lights are for special signals and/or for backup, e.g., they have two of the same color lights mounted together. I haven't a clue what the green-over-red combination light in the link is for.....perhaps a mine-clearing vessel underway? Or a catamaran sailing upside down? :-)

Bill
I never noticed the 1 meter part of the rule before. Both Perko and Lopo make separate all round green and all round red lights. I believe that you should be able to engineer something sturdy and lightweight, but it will take more work.

John
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Old 23-02-2008, 02:50   #8
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Can you imagine how you are going to interpret the boat direction in the pitch black of night. A colour above colour and all round. The entire purpose of Red/Green is to understand which direction the boat is going in the dark. Is it to Starboard or to Port or coming straight at you. Colour over colour and all round just doesn't make sense. An all round white would make better sense. At lest you know a boat is there. Maybe not direction, but you know there is a boat.
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Old 23-02-2008, 05:14   #9
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I hope everyone caught the detail about running the tricolor on < 20m boats. "In leiu of" seems to be ingnored on a regular basis.

It is one or the other folks but not both.
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Old 23-02-2008, 06:14   #10
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YEAH YEAH AND DOUBLE YEAH.....after all these years... I run BOTH sets of nav lights. Heres why. you cant run a tri with anything else. You can run deck with all rounders. The meter apart stuff is not in the Australian rules so hence forth does not exist !! When closing a shore line mast head can get lost against back ground lights. When at sea deck lights are often to low to be seen at any reasonable distance. Your question Alan is a reasonable one "from what direction ?" Fact is at any distance masthead lights "Blend" anyway. What would you do if you sore both a red and green ? I hope you would assume that it was coming straight at you and that is the beauty of it and the reason for it. It makes boats think. ONLY SAILING boats can use it. But I dont know where they are going I hear you cry... well no....once you are within a stern rails pee of the sailing boat you will then see its DECK lights and thus know its direction. ( But before then to say it again, you have to make the assumption that you are on a closing course.......an assumption that happens to be healthy for wee little sailing boat versus 200 00000 ton can crusher. makes sense eh !! PS I made my own because I couldnt buy em and I wanted an LED version and the rules said I could...
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Old 23-02-2008, 08:18   #11
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Cooper,

The 1-meter spacing for vertical red and green all-round lights is an International Rule, not just U.S. Inland. The International Rule reads as follows:

Annex I para 2 (i) "When the Rules prescribe two or three lights to be carried in a vertical line, they shall be spaced as follows.

(i) (applies to vessels over 20 meters)

(ii) "on a vessel of less than 20 meters in length such lights shall be spaced not less than one meter apart and the lowest light...." etc.

While it's possible that Australia has a different rule, I kinda doubt it.

Also, re: carrying BOTH. The red-over-green light provision specifically calls for carrying both the red-over-green and the normal sidelights and sternlight.

It is the mast top tricolor (red, green, white combined with same arcs as normal side and stern lights) that may optionally be carried by vessels under 20m in length and, if they choose to carry the tricolor it must be carried alone (i.e., you have to douse the sidelights and sternlight).

Whew! Ain't this fun?

Bill
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Old 23-02-2008, 09:12   #12
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YEAH YEAH AND DOUBLE YEAH.....after all these years... I run BOTH sets of nav lights. Heres why. you cant run a tri with anything else. You can run deck with all rounders. The meter apart stuff is not in the Australian rules so hence forth does not exist !! When closing a shore line mast head can get lost against back ground lights. When at sea deck lights are often to low to be seen at any reasonable distance. Your question Alan is a reasonable one "from what direction ?" Fact is at any distance masthead lights "Blend" anyway. What would you do if you sore both a red and green ? I hope you would assume that it was coming straight at you and that is the beauty of it and the reason for it. It makes boats think. ONLY SAILING boats can use it. But I dont know where they are going I hear you cry... well no....once you are within a stern rails pee of the sailing boat you will then see its DECK lights and thus know its direction. ( But before then to say it again, you have to make the assumption that you are on a closing course.......an assumption that happens to be healthy for wee little sailing boat versus 200 00000 ton can crusher. makes sense eh !! PS I made my own because I couldnt buy em and I wanted an LED version and the rules said I could...
The "meter apart rule" are definitely in the Aussie version of the International Col. Reg:s. See this link ComLaw Legislative Instruments - Marine Orders - Part 30: Prevention of collisions, Issue 7 (Order No. 4 of 2005) (No. 4 of 2005)
You will find this rule in Annex I 2:i::ii on page 32 in the pdf version.
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Old 23-02-2008, 09:44   #13
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"Red over Green..sailing machine" Is the mnemonic used to remember this light combination. I think its a great idea to have this light combination as it will be visible before the sidelights or sternlight (probably) is visible.
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Old 23-02-2008, 09:50   #14
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I agree with David here. My buddies who work on large ships traveling the world say they prefer the "red over green, sailing machine" lights because on little boats, the sidelights can sometimes be missed behind swells and stuff.

The red over green configuration really helps them see us.

My new boat has this set of lights as well as the standard running lights. I'm glad to have it for cases where a large boat may not see me.
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Old 23-02-2008, 09:58   #15
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Can you imagine how you are going to interpret the boat direction in the pitch black of night. A colour above colour and all round. The entire purpose of Red/Green is to understand which direction the boat is going in the dark. Is it to Starboard or to Port or coming straight at you. Colour over colour and all round just doesn't make sense. An all round white would make better sense. At lest you know a boat is there. Maybe not direction, but you know there is a boat.
Alan,
There are a number of vertical 360 degree light combinations that are used in conjunction with the red and green 112.5 degree sidelights. Color does not solely indicate the aspect of the vessel. Color is also used to indicate the status of the vessel. For example a vertical red-white-red means "restricted in ability to maneuver" and two vertical red lights means not under command or "captain is dead". Green over white means "fishing tonight" and of course a pilot boat has white over red meaning "pilot ahead"..you know this already but for the benefit of those that don't.

It is confusing until you consider where the sidelight or sternlight is with respect to the 360 degree lights. An easy way to remember is that the lower light(s) indicate the vessels aspect and the upper lights indicate the vessels status.

Why you cannot fly a tri-color and sidelights in conjunction with each other is for the reason that the upper lights are supposed to indicate status and the lower lights aspect...dont do it, it could confuse someone.

About the 1 meter separation in the previous posts, I would not worry too much about it, just be sure to have some separation...the more the better. Nobody is going to be out on the ocean writing "fix-it" tickets.

Another little thing, lots of sailing yachts are using strobes as identifiers. The problem is strobes are also used for emergencies. If you want to attract large vessels towards you then fly a strobe. Hopefully they won't hit you before they can identify you as a sailboat and not a liferaft. I have stood a number of watches where I saw a strobe and found myself nudging myself off course to get closer. Only when I saw a sidelight or a sternlight through my binoculars did I get back on my trackline. I probably freaked some of them out as well when they saw both my port and starboard lights and range lights pointed at them. I dont think a lot of yachties understand the potential downside of using a strobe.

David
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