New Balmar Alternator Charging Question

[four winds]

For those with or considering cooling air ducted to the alt, be sure to know the direction of flow through the unit.

I believe most if not all flow in the back side and out the front (belt) side.

[DeepFrz]

I forgot the link in my earlier post.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Attwood-T...-Volt/14150764

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I post these every time this discussion comes up:

Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

Small Engine Mode - discussion with link to the picture of the toggle switch: Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

Small Engine Mode - the picture of the toggle switch Alternator Output Management with External Regulators [Small Engine Mode]


********************

It is a SYSTEM. Once one learns how the parts work, one can accommodate the loads, the parts (alternators getting too hot, belts slipping), and the regulation (amp or belt manager vs./and/or in conjunction with Small Engine Mode).

Thanks. I read a couple of your threads a few days ago. I have a question regarding derating the alternator. I have a 165 amp alternator and lets say I derate it 50%. So after turning it on it hits bulk mode (assuming batteries at 60%) and runs at approx 80 amps. When it changes to acceptance mode, how does the derating work? Will it just keep it from charging higher than 82 amps, or will it cut the acceptance mode charge by 50% as well? Currently (derated 28%) I run 130 amps during bulk (when not overheating) and about 60 amps when starting acceptance mode.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I post these every time this discussion comes up:

Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

Small Engine Mode - discussion with link to the picture of the toggle switch: Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

Small Engine Mode - the picture of the toggle switch Alternator Output Management with External Regulators [Small Engine Mode]


********************

It is a SYSTEM. Once one learns how the parts work, one can accommodate the loads, the parts (alternators getting too hot, belts slipping), and the regulation (amp or belt manager vs./and/or in conjunction with Small Engine Mode).

Hi Stu, thanks for that feedback. I do understand its a system (motor mechanic). This would be my second high amp alternator/regulator system.

On the last boat I had the balmar setup, I used to limit output to 50amp mainly to go easy on the belt, 50 amp is plenty for me.

Unfortunately this reg dosent give that option, the temp sensor takes care of it but seems to be much more aggressive than the balmar setup.

But I do agree with others comments regarding false advertising " maybe able to put out 100amps momentarily"'would be better....lol.

Anyway 1st world problem, no big deal.

[a64pilot]

It's heat of course that is the issue, unfortunately by turning up the power heat goes up too, that it inevitable. The issue is of course not a large enough heat sink. A small frame alt is a small frame alt of course and has the capacity to lose only so much heat.
The alt has two fans I believe, one in the front and one at the rear, it's the rear that heats up the most and is the most effective place to blow air.

I think all these souped up alternators run original fans and that has to be somewhat limiting?

To get a continuous duty high amp alternator, you need I believe unfortunately a large frame alternator, it's a matter of cooling, not making power.

Porsche I think had a fan cooled alternator with a shroud for a hose.
Maybe someday someone will make a liquid called alternator, meaning of course then you could mount the heat exchanger where you would have room, one day.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by kenbo

Since I don't charge much over 100A I was able to keep my single 1/2" belt and the Delco internal voltage regulators do have excellent battery voltage sense capability.

Doesn't it seem counterproductive to buy a high amp, small case alternator, belt kit, external voltage regulator and temp sensors to only derate the whole thing to output of a 1980's alternator?

Yes. Especially since the mfr rates the unit at 165 amps. Are you suggesting I run the thing at 100% and let it burn up? What exactly is your point?

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It's heat of course that is the issue, unfortunately by turning up the power heat goes up too, that it inevitable. The issue is of course not a large enough heat sink. A small frame alt is a small frame alt of course and has the capacity to lose only so much heat.
The alt has two fans I believe, one in the front and one at the rear, it's the rear that heats up the most and is the most effective place to blow air.

I think all these souped up alternators run original fans and that has to be somewhat limiting?

To get a continuous duty high amp alternator, you need I believe unfortunately a large frame alternator, it's a matter of cooling, not making power.

They have a larger alternator, series 94, but I don't think it would have fit my engine. I knew the Balmar was not 100% continuous duty at max output, but I thought it should be able to handle 130 Amps for 18 minutes. Some other brands are not painted and some say they offload heat better. I did not do enough research when I chose Balmar, I should have gone to Bruce Schwab for the Mark Grasser option.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

Thanks. I read a couple of your threads a few days ago. I have a question regarding derating the alternator. I have a 165 amp alternator and lets say I derate it 50%. So after turning it on it hits bulk mode (assuming batteries at 60%) and runs at approx 80 amps. When it changes to acceptance mode, how does the derating work? Will it just keep it from charging higher than 82 amps, or will it cut the acceptance mode charge by 50% as well? Currently (derated 28%) I run 130 amps during bulk (when not overheating) and about 60 amps when starting acceptance mode.

You're quite welcome.

Derating is continuous. Yes, it will cut the charge available for ALL stages of charge. This means that if you use the amp or belt manager feature of the regulator, THROUGHOUT the entire charging regimen the alternator will only produce that proportion of its total capacity that you PROGRAM in the manager feature. 165A alternator derated to 50% is your 82A. As mentioned many, many times, and the reality of basic battery charging, once past the bulk phase or stage, it is the BATTERIES themselves that determine the amperage that they will accept. Of course, at startup with a depleted battery bank, in bulk, the regulator is instructing the alternator to produce as much current as possible as the voltage rises to the setpoint.

That's why my experience is that I leave the amp manager at 100% and use the Small Engine mode toggle switch to deal with startup loads on the alternator (explained in detail in the link for those who haven't read them yet).

[I run a 100A alternator with a 3/8" belt on an M25 21 hp Universal engine.]

As noted also, it's in the manual for all of the Balmar regulators. It took me awhile (a few years ago) to understand what it all meant, and with Maine Sail's help I did.

That's why I keep linking those discussions.

Derate kills your output (without having the reprogram with the reed wand) just when you need it the most (i.e., when the alternator is cool enough to actually produce without overheating).

The Small Engine Mode toggle switch lets you reduce the load on the alternator EASILY just when it is highest, and simply kick it back EASILY to 100% when the load reduces as the batteries get fuller. No reprogramming required.

Does that answer your question?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

They have a larger alternator, series 94, but I don't think it would have fit my engine. I knew the Balmar was not 100% continuous duty at max output, but I thought it should be able to handle 130 Amps for 18 minutes. Some other brands are not painted and some say they offload heat better. I did not do enough research when I chose Balmar, I should have gone to Bruce Schwab for the Mark Grasser option.

I have a Mark Grasser 165 myself.
My belief is that paint is an insulator, but there is evidence that the right coatings increase emissivity or the ability to off load heat.
I don't think paint is going to make much difference, it's one of those things that you can show in lab conditions, but in real life it's in the noise band so to speak.
I think it's just a matter if inadequate cooling for the power produced, these things were designed to produce X amount of power, soup them up to 3X and that's more heat than it can get rid of.
Just my opinion not based on any testing etc, only an opinion.

What I do not know but wonder, is will the same frame 200 amp alternator make more power continuously than say a 165 without overheating, or are they both realistically somewhere around 80 to 100 amps based on heat?

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

You're quite welcome.

Derating is continuous. Yes, it will cut the charge available for ALL stages of charge. This means that if you use the amp or belt manager feature of the regulator, THROUGHOUT the entire charging regimen the alternator will only produce that proportion of its total capacity that you PROGRAM in the manager feature. 165A alternator derated to 50% is your 82A. As mentioned many, many times, and the reality of basic battery charging, once past the bulk phase or stage, it is the BATTERIES themselves that determine the amperage that they will accept. Of course, at startup with a depleted battery bank, in bulk, the regulator is instructing the alternator to produce as much current as possible as the voltage rises to the setpoint.

That's why my experience is that I leave the amp manager at 100% and use the Small Engine mode toggle switch to deal with startup loads on the alternator (explained in detail in the link for those who haven't read them yet).

[I run a 100A alternator with a 3/8" belt on an M25 21 hp Universal engine.]

As noted also, it's in the manual for all of the Balmar regulators. It took me awhile (a few years ago) to understand what it all meant, and with Maine Sail's help I did.

That's why I keep linking those discussions.

Derate kills your output (without having the reprogram with the reed wand) just when you need it the most (i.e., when the alternator is cool enough to actually produce without overheating).

The Small Engine Mode toggle switch lets you reduce the load on the alternator EASILY just when it is highest, and simply kick it back EASILY to 100% when the load reduces as the batteries get fuller. No reprogramming required.

Does that answer your question?

Yes. In my case, run in small engine mode until out of bulk mode then flip the switch. I was not sure if you could do it while running.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What I do not know but wonder, is will the same frame 200 amp alternator make more power continuously than say a 165 without overheating, or are they both realistically somewhere around 80 to 100 amps based on heat?

From the first of my links (which I'm sure you must have read since you're a regular here and I've posted them so many times ):

I’ve had a discussion with a C36 owner from Connecticut on the “larger the better alternator”, arguing the point that a huge alternator (125A) on an M25, even M25XP, is kinda overkill and could hurt the bearings on the engine. He replied that the larger alternator didn’t have to work so hard. There is truth to that IF the acceptance of the reasonably sized house bank is the limiting factor.

It's not so much the heat, but rather the LOAD, which will be pretty much the same for a 200 vs. a 165 with a 400 ah depleted 50% SOC bank. The load at startup will be 50-75A with that nominal house bank, regardless of what size alternator. It's almost like reverse engineering.

All we're saying is that a BIGGER alternator will take the larger load during bulk much better. And that one should examine the house bank size and its bulk load when selecting an alternator. And use the features of the external regulator as you see fit. I've explained how we use ours.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

Yes. In my case, run in small engine mode until out of bulk mode then flip the switch. I was not sure if you could do it while running.

Yes, no problem. Think of it this way: SEM is just like doing the temp sensing, but manually. If the regulator can do it automatically...

[kenbo]

I didn't recommend Mark Grasser's remote rectifier. I suggested looking at this one as an alternative https://alternatorparts.com/quicktif...rectifier.html

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

From the first of my links (which I'm sure you must have read since you're a regular here and I've posted them so many times ):

I’ve had a discussion with a C36 owner from Connecticut on the “larger the better alternator”, arguing the point that a huge alternator (125A) on an M25, even M25XP, is kinda overkill and could hurt the bearings on the engine. He replied that the larger alternator didn’t have to work so hard. There is truth to that IF the acceptance of the reasonably sized house bank is the limiting factor.

It's not so much the heat, but rather the LOAD, which will be pretty much the same for a 200 vs. a 165 with a 400 ah depleted 50% SOC bank. The load at startup will be 50-75A with that nominal house bank, regardless of what size alternator. It's almost like reverse engineering.

All we're saying is that a BIGGER alternator will take the larger load during bulk much better. And that one should examine the house bank size and its bulk load when selecting an alternator. And use the features of the external regulator as you see fit. I've explained how we use ours.

That is just what I'm wondering.
See they are not larger, nor are they bigger, they are essentially the same mass and have the same surface area and the same cooling fans, or I think they do anyway, maybe I'm wrong. I'd hope the big alternators have much better cooling than their little brothers.
Yes they make different amounts of power, but does one eliminate the heat better, or is it made from materials that will accept higher heat? Or is it going to be temp limited at about the same output of its "smaller " brother?
Or said another way, how much more continuous power can you get on average out of a 200 amp alternator than say a 150 or so?
There may not be much difference, and if not, was all the extra $$$ spent on the 200, money well spent?
At what point does more money not necessarily equate to faster charge times?

I know of course there are variables, but what is the continuous power output of a 100, 150 and 200 amp alternators in average engine room temps?

[kenbo]

I still don't get the value proposition in spending over $1500 on a 165A alternator and external regulator so you can cut the output back to a level that a small case is designed to handle.

Wouldn't it be a better value proposition to change the design of the alternator and get the rectifier and heat out of the case and get the charging capacity that you paid for. Seems like a band aid to me and you will be running the engine longer as well. At 82A you should have stayed with flooded batteries, your not getting the full value of your AGM's and they really need to go to 100%.