IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

[Bulawayo]

Thank you, Chris.
My teenagers tell me that capitalisation used to mean shouting but nowadays can be used used to emphasise. I certainly do not have any issues with the poster nor with yourself - I use the forum to learn from others. In this battery respect I am a novice but am keen to learn. The cruisers that I associate with have often not even heard of such batteries as they have been cruising for years (we have been as well, full time since 1995). I am not alone with this desire to learn and often share these posts with other cruisers who do not have access to the internet etc.
Also many thanks for the link .....I shall extract as much info as possible. Frequently, when I go on-line, I am in some remote location (a few months ago in Chagos) and have to use a satellite telephone to gain internet access - it can become challenging to decipher or to understand some postings and frequently we are left wondering what is meant.
I do appreciate your mail.
Kindest.

Originally Posted by witzgall

Bulawayo,

My point was not what you asked but how I perceived you asked it. I took your asking twice for it to be put in English using capital letters (many perceive that to be yelling on the internet) as a disrespectful demand. You are telling me I was wrong, ok, then for that I apologize.

Here is Main Sails' page on lithium on his own website:

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

There is no such thing as drop in replacement LIFEPO4 batteries for boats. Even the offerings from Mastervolt and Victron, as wonderful as they are, are not drop in replacements. Much effort needs to be spent on managing and controlling every point of charging and load. If you look at a diagram on either of those companies websites, of a typical Lithium system, you will see what I mean. I am not trying to scare you off, just know that you will need to spend many days learning about this technology if you want to consider DIY. There is no source to tell you how to do it on your boat, because every boat is different.



Chris

[dlentz]

Originally Posted by navy davy

carbon foam batteries "Firefly Oasis"

Really? In 3 1/2 years my LiFePo have never done this. These are brand new FF G31 s, never even cycled (They are mine and each one cost what I paid for a 700ah LiFepo cell!). Tell me about safety! The point being; Storing energy is always going to be a potentially risky affair in what ever form you chose, and folks do your homework and don't rely on internet experts that have Little to No first hand experience with the subject!
The amount of misinformation on this thread is very entertaining, but Geez

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by dlentz

Really? In 3 1/2 years my LiFePo have never done this. These are brand new FF G31 s, never even cycled (They are mine and each one cost what I paid for a 700ah LiFepo cell!). Tell me about safety! The point being; Storing energy is always going to be a potentially risky affair in what ever form you chose, and folks do your homework and don't rely on internet experts that have Little to No first hand experience with the subject!
The amount of misinformation on this thread is very entertaining, but Geez

dlentz,
Did you just get those FF batteries? Apparently they recently upgraded the pressure valves however the way that the new valves are configured inside is different. Anyhow the story they gave us is that the new valves require a different procedure in assembly to make sure there is no leftover electrolyte from the assembly & charging process on the inside of the valves (which they forgot or didn't realize with the first sets). Or maybe they were supposed to replace the set used on the first cycles with fresh ones. Not sure, however I think they will replace them if the don't stop that bubbling. PM to let us know who you got them from and we can follow up with them & FF

Bruce

[TheThunderbird]

@senormechanico / electrico
"Thunderbird,

Please stop spreading bogus stuff before you know what you are talking about."

Sir,
I don't care really about it, as what I delivered was told me by 2 EE.
One working on a battery factory, another with some 20y experience, including 8yrs a skipper on 86' s/Y.

I mind that other readers may get mixed up by Your "bogus stuff", unless you may detail the reason for your discontent :-)

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by StuM

So Tesla's don't use Lithium batteries for storage? I wonder where they get the energy from when they are 100 miles from their last recharge.

On traction it is different, in fact I point at Tesla car as a good example.

Lifepo can switch on your big engine with a 18Ah battery, because their charge reach 900A, as much as on a LA 80Ah battery.

Here the advantage is obvious!
But if I need a house bank onboard of say 500Ah (say 200Ah equivalent on Lithium technology)... the cost overall is appealing.

Any technology has trade offs, I do not defend / sponsor none, just observe that a mixed approach might be preferable, without starting verbal crusades :-)

[Hybrid Power]

Originally Posted by dlentz

Really? In 3 1/2 years my LiFePo have never done this. These are brand new FF G31 s, never even cycled (They are mine and each one cost what I paid for a 700ah LiFepo cell!). Tell me about safety! The point being; Storing energy is always going to be a potentially risky affair in what ever form you chose, and folks do your homework and don't rely on internet experts that have Little to No first hand experience with the subject!
The amount of misinformation on this thread is very entertaining, but Geez

Firefly was made aware of this problem a couple of months ago and from what I understand stopped production temporarily while a fix was found. We had an order in with FF that was delayed by a couple of months while they addressed this concern. As Ocean Planet said, from what we understand there are new valves and a new procedure for installation on the production line. I'd get in touch with who you bought those batteries from to have them swapped out for batteries with the new valve system.

[senormechanico]

Working in a lead acid battery factory?
Maybe he said that because he's afraid of losing a job in a buggy whip factory???

The other guy a captain for 8 years, yeah that makes him an expert on batteries as well.

Next time you want to appear as an expert on something, it would help to post actual documentation or as most people posting here, personal experience with LiFePo4 cells.

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by doublewide

Funny, but this subject came up in another (private) forum recently. One of our sister ships is very enthusiastic about their Li-FePO4 system. With their boat name redacted, here is what they wrote. The blog reference is very good.

"An outline of what I have onboard (more details to come later):
* 800AH of CALB 400 Lithium. This replaces my 780AH of LA, removed 80KG of
weight, and fits with a small modification to the existing battery case.
* 1,300 watts of solar, with two controllers Outback
and Morningstar
* We now have plenty of power, and run everything on the boat off the inverter
(water maker, hot water, ice maker, washer dryer, AC, etc). We’ve not used the
genset in 3 months.
Critical considerations:
* No matter what a Lithium vendor will tell you, you should not use standard 14.4v
LA charging profiles.
* Alternator charging must be regulated and have voltage sensing. We charge to
13.8v. There is an elegant solution for the Volvo D240.
* All other charging sources you must have the ability to control the charging
voltage. All of mine are set (solar, wind, genset) to 13.8v.
* Charging to 13.8v will provide about 98% of full charge and keep you out of the
upper knee
* It is important to use a BMS for regulating the cell charge
Options for Lithium:
* Lithionics USA the
best ‘drop in’ solution for Lithium on a boat. Very Expensive.
* Genasun USA The
second best ‘drop in’ solution. Very expensive. (Genasun
is now sourcing from Lithionics the batteries vs CALB)
* Mastervolt or Victron IMO,
not worth the cost compared to Lithionics.
* DIY Reasonable
cost, but lots of legwork. That was my solution. All in and
installed for about $4,500USD for 800ah Lithium.
Biggest Insight:
* If I would have the chance to ‘do over’ on my boat, I would skip the genset, add
800ah of Lithium, build a well designed solar configuration for 1.2kw of solar on
bimini and arch ( vs. the current molds), and have two inverter/charges in parallel.
This would provide all the power we need with no moving parts, diesel, etc,
remove 200+kg of weight and provide a clean, simple and usable energy solution
for long term cruising.
* Don’t get confused with other Lithium battery chemistries. Boeing as an example
uses a higher density chemistry for their batteries, that are prone to fire if not
properly charged. LiFePO4 are a lot safer chemistry, and with proper redundant
systems onboard a good option for boats. There are more and more boats in the
S Pacific that we are sailing with moving to or already 100% LiFePO4.
* Further background reading, here is a good blog: PBase.com
mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats&page=1

So, you spend 4500US$ to replace LA batteries (1000Ah) worth approx. 1000US$.
EVENfactoring in a better durability and deeper cycles etc, the cost ratio is, I had said , 4.5/1.

I do not want to offend anyone defiNing it "insane" yet. Which doesn't mean wrong!, just at an economic disadvantage.

You saved 80kg gear at a cost of 3500US$, or 44US$/Kg
I put NO irony in my considerations, just a question mark.

I spend into luxury items when (e.g. a top level car) I have a physical appreciation of the final effect.but here...

Here, we all need an Ampere-rated Juice, no more no less, what ever the chemistry behind it.lead..lithium...anything else... I leave it to EE PhD (anyone here!? I doubt..)

We all remain grateful to the pioneers who test the new.

In 2016 TESLA will make available a new Lithium based technology (NCM!? I can not check) and prices will get down faster than we can imagine.
PS surely sailing the South Pacific helps for a solo-solar/wind energy production

Batteries are for STORING capacity, whereby the real issue is about consumption/production balance, filling gaps in an ordered way.

Technology is just a way to reach that fine balance

Look at GEL batteries, so much praised,... which market share do they have!?

Btw, absit iniuria verbis

Regards

[TheThunderbird]

The first guy works in a factory which builds lithium batteries, and full electric maritime solutions
The "other guy" worked for FBI in electronics counter-measures, is an EE and has managed 2V cells 1m long each onboard.. he chews the matter by and large

I don't care less to show up as an expert. I live this weakness to the wise and the strong men all over the world.

If you are sick at being so individually aggressive in a blog which is a one-to-many conversation, alas, I can't do much for you

And others (not I, honestly) are still waiting for your piece of wisdom regarding Lithium...for confutation or upgrade in information

Anyway, I won't answer you again

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

"12V 100Ah Lithium-ion battery equals the performance of a 12V ~400Ah lead acid when using 1hr discharge rate and lower depth of discharge with longer life. "
weights 28lbs, life cycle 2000 at 80% depth of discharge and they recharge fast as $%^
I guess this is using Peukurt? scale, what am I missing, is it truly the same amp hours, as 240 lbs of deep cycle golf cart batteries? at barely 2x the price?

Sorry I missed this point and it is called MISLEADING MARKETING..

But just for the heck of it lets do the math and see if their claim is correct..

Bank #1 400Ah Lead Acid AGM Bank with a Peukert of 1.11

Discharge Rate = 400A (1 hour rate) net Ah's delivered at 80F = 287Ah's

Marketing point = FAIL.....

Bank #2 400Ah Flooded Lead Acid Bank with a Peukert of 1.2

Discharge rate = 400A (1 hour rate) net Ah's delivered at 80F = 220Ah

Marketing point = Fail



We would need a 400Ah flooded bank with a Peulkert of 1.50+/- to get to 100Ah at a 1C / 400A discharge. These batteries are out there but are pretty small as a percentage in their use on boats.

Of course the main point that can't be over looked is that the average cruising boat is discharging a battery at average discharge current of about 15%-35% of the 20 hour rate (the discharge rate a lead acid battery derives its Ah rating from) and at this discharge rate the capacity of a lead acid bank actually grows a bit where LiFeP04 stays closer to the Ah rating.

Unless you are completely discharging your house bank at 1C, extremely doubtful, a 100Ah LiFeP04 DOES NOT = a 400Ah Lead acid in terms of Ah capacity.

Where LiFeP04 wins is in the usable capacity and lack of sulfation lending themselves to amazing cycle life in partial state of charge use.. You can very easily use 80% of a LFP bank when cruising but it is very difficult to use much more than about 30-35% of a lead acid bank when cruising.

Here is an example of a high Peukert deep cycle flooded battery. The battery is rated at 375Ah (see the 20 hour rate) and on a bank like this I see about a 5A - 8A average discharge rate on cruising boats. At 5A - 8A this battery anywhere from 440Ah to 486Ah not 375Ah. A 375Ah LFP battery might be 380Ah at 5A - 8A. Thus discharge rate, temperature and Peukert all matter. Marketing claims but sleazy companies not withstanding.

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Stu, I have also been trying to figure out this terminology.
I think it might be similar to CCA (cold cranking amps) - of course I might be totally wrong but no-one is very forthcoming about this new super top secret language.
Best regards.

Excuse me Gentlemen!
It is said that English is the only foreign language spoken by Americans.I am neither of the two, do please pardon me :-).

Sooo.. sorry if, having read Shakespeare quite thoroughly..., I didn't find anything close to CCA and translated it in a flowery way, "A-impulse" (what an engine batteries causes on the engine, ...not a long work over time, rather an instantaneous torque, whereby we can afford using a Li battery of 1/4 the rated capacity of a LA one.)

[Dulcesuenos]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Sorry I missed this point and it is called MISLEADING MARKETING..

But just for the heck of it lets do the math and see if their claim is correct..

Bank #1 400Ah Lead Acid AGM Bank with a Peukert of 1.11

Discharge Rate = 400A (1 hour rate) net Ah's delivered at 80F = 287Ah's

Marketing point = FAIL.....

Bank #2 400Ah Flooded Lead Acid Bank with a Peukert of 1.2

Discharge rate = 400A (1 hour rate) net Ah's delivered at 80F = 220Ah

Marketing point = Fail



We would need a 400Ah flooded bank with a Peulkert of 1.50+/- to get to 100Ah at a 1C / 400A discharge. These batteries are out there but are pretty small as a percentage in their use on boats.

Of course the main point that can't be over looked is that the average cruising boat is discharging a battery at average discharge current of about 15%-35% of the 20 hour rate (the discharge rate a lead acid battery derives its Ah rating from) and at this discharge rate the capacity of a lead acid bank actually grows a bit where LiFeP04 stays closer to the Ah rating.

Unless you are completely discharging your house bank at 1C, extremely doubtful, a 100Ah LiFeP04 DOES NOT = a 400Ah Lead acid in terms of Ah capacity.

Where LiFeP04 wins is in the usable capacity and lack of sulfation lending themselves to amazing cycle life in partial state of charge use.. You can very easily use 80% of a LFP bank when cruising but it is very difficult to use much more than about 30-35% of a lead acid bank when cruising.

Here is an example of a high Peukert deep cycle flooded battery. The battery is rated at 375Ah (see the 20 hour rate) and on a bank like this I see about a 5A - 8A average discharge rate on cruising boats. At 5A - 8A this battery anywhere from 440Ah to 486Ah not 375Ah. A 375Ah LFP battery might be 380Ah at 5A - 8A. Thus discharge rate, temperature and Peukert all matter. Marketing claims but sleazy companies not withstanding.

Thanks!

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

The first guy works in a factory which builds lithium batteries, and full electric maritime solutions
The "other guy" worked for FBI in electronics counter-measures, is an EE and has managed 2V cells 1m long each onboard.. he chews the matter by and large

I don't care less to show up as an expert. I live this weakness to the wise and the strong men all over the world.

If you are sick at being so individually aggressive in a blog which is a one-to-many conversation, alas, I can't do much for you

And others (not I, honestly) are still waiting for your piece of wisdom regarding Lithium...for confutation or upgrade in information

Anyway, I won't answer you again

I have no doubt that your friend said that his lithium batteries have concerns with thermal runaway. But since you can't seem to figure out that lifepo and Li-ion are two radically different technologies with different concerns, I do have doubts that you heard him correctly.

It is simply not the case that lifepo batteries are subject to explosive runaways like li-ion are. Until you understand this basic issue addressing the technology your comments must be discounted as lacking a basic familiarity with modern technology.

[TheThunderbird]

We speak LiFePo here
If flushed by salt water, the may get on fire and release acid, and possibly explode. I am not familiar with the details , but to me it is enough to get cautious on matter. I am not interested in checking HOW likely this event may occur.
Not a product to blindly drop in in place of another battery.
And a boat not a lab where to run tests
Not even a lab where to operate the complex machinery needed to correctly run cycles
Main sail was adamant on it.

If you feel happy to categorize people without any evidence of the contrary , do enjoy that sickness alone, please, not in public
Maybe you want to tell them in public that Lithium is a well established technology, prone to no hassle, complication, no need of careful monitoring, fully reliable and outstandingly cheap...(!??).

I see the number of EE PhD.s on the increase.... yes, you all grab the chemistry behind it, and further more (!? Not a need, we need to be well advised users only)

How many batteries need to be bought for getting that Doctorate?
Ouch, I see that the qualification was "having bought/used some"

Yap, I am not qualified yet
PS

Actually, I praise the contribute of a couple of Manufacturers here, who were quite explicit in recognizing that they are still under serious development of both technology and applications.
No easy way at its infancy, and with a not so much fast-increasing customer basis

[luciarose]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"the problem is that lifepo batteries are better than lead-acid in every single catagory except two."
Eh, you might want to reconsider and say THREE categories.
When and if a lithium-anything battery decides to combust, it may do so rather violently and without warning. And even the best, from the best brands, installed by the best designers and engineers, DO combust far more often than conventional lead acid batteries. The UN and the IAPA keep discussing how or whether they'll have to restrict or ban air shipments entirely, because they're getting tired of aircraft catching fire from batteries "properly" shipped in the cargo holds. Not being used, just being shipped.
And if a lithium battery DOES catch fire...I know LiFePo is the only type that doesn't use a flammable electrolyte, but can a conventional extinguisher put that out? It won't phase any of the other lithium types.

The one thing that you "know" is false. The majority of iron phosphate cells use basically the same electrolyte as all other lithium ion cells. It is a flammable electrolyte. Iron phosphate cells can and do have problems with catching fire on overcharge and abuse but since they have a much lower energy density than cobalt lithium ion cells, they are inherently 'safer'. ie: if you have a smaller can of gas, it is inherently safer than a large can of gas - but that's because you have less energy in the same space.

Also, lead acid is not a "Safe" chemistry. If anyone tried introducing that as a new chemistry today it would be banned. Acid, lead ,hydrogen gas: what is safe in that? There are literately thousands of cases per year in the USA alone of lead acid batteries causing injury. A study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that battery explosions in 1993 alone injured 2,280 people severely enough to have required hospital treatment. If lithium ion cells caused that many injuries in a year, we wouldn't all be carrying them around on our bodies everyday in cell phones.

Finally, try shipping lead acid batteries by air. They face similar restrictions as lithium-ion cells. If the airlines clamped down and enforced their current freight restrictions, they would not have to worry so much about air freight of lithium ion cells and packs. It's the onslaught of low quality (primarily Chinese) product that does not meet safety requirements that causes most incidents. (and if you search for actual cases of batteries catching fire on aircraft there is an extremely low number of actual incidents).