Golf cart batteries

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by DotDun

And yes, they were new batteries (if fact the month before 'born on'). Apparently, Trojan predicts shelf time.

Wow you were 100% correct!!!

Just talked to them and they are $87.00 each + $24.00 core, $1.50 solid waste fee and tax. Total cost per battery = $117.81. They are new and they claim they make zero money on their "carry out" batteries.

Up here my core is $10.00 but I often have the cores......

I guess we just have a smaller volume up here. I just spoke with my distributor and told him what I found for T105 prices. "Holy $hit" was his response. He was apologetic but said his cost on them is $117.00 each and for up here he is the big volume distributor.... It is frustrating that there is sooooo much markup and volume discounting on batteries that there can be this much spread.

So if in Florida buy your batteries at Affordable Carts!!! By the time I paid core and all the fees to get them here I'd be at close to what my cost is in Maine.....

And I thought the spread between WM and Sam's Club was offensive, at least those batteries have different stickers........

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

FWIW, whether you buy the batteries in "tropical" locations also makes a difference. Apparently they are filled with a different electrolyte when intended for use in hot climates.

Often, they'll have a weaker acid solution (Specific Gravity) in tropical climes; but it's still sulfuric acid and water..

In high temperature (tropical) environments, the battery acid (electrolyte) is more active; allowing a weaker (lower specific gravity) solution to provide similar results, with less deterioration of the battery plates and separator.

A full charge is represented by the following approximate* Specific Gravities:
Tropical ± 1.210 - 1.230
Temperate ± 1.260 - 1.280
* Some manufacturers use higher specific gravities, in an attempt to gain additional Ah capacity, but at the cost of a shorter service life.

Higher Specific Gravity:
More capacity
Shorter life
Higher momentary discharge rates
More standing loss
More freeze resistance
vs
Lower Specific Gravity:
Less capacity
Longer life
Lower momentary discharge rates
Less standing loss
Less freeze resistance

[hellosailor]

"A Trojan wet battery, ...should read 12.73V."
Which puts them about 1/10 volt higher than the usual, which can only happen if they are doing something "different" chemically. Which comes back to the question about Centennial or another brand. If Trojan are doing something different, perhaps in the mix of metals they use or in the quality of the lead they use (which is almost always entirely recycled lead).
It would not be unusual if that meant a certain amount were "off spec" and diverted to another label simply as a quality control solution. In any case, when two different names come out of one plant, there's usually some difference. Maybe just in how much is spent on marketing--but often in the product. You often can't tell without asking them about it.

Gord-
"* Some manufacturers use higher specific gravities, in an attempt to gain additional Ah capacity, but at the cost of a shorter service life." VERY interesting and in 20-20 hindsght entirely logical. I'm guessing that's one reason why so many battery makers are now claiming much higher AH ratings from batteries made with "the same old" hundred year old technology in the same old sizes. I wonder how that relates to Trojan?

Maine-
Bear in mind, ignoring where the Trojan plant may be, there's an AWFUL lot more golf courses, and golf carts, in Florida than in Maine. Hell, there are huge retirement communities and municipalities where they allow the damned things on the streets and build special paths for them. I'd expect 20? 50? times the sales volume has got to impact the prices.
And if those batteries come from the Georgia plant? Yeah, that's 1000 miles less diesel on every delivery to Florida. Y'all just geographically disadvantaged up there.<G>

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Often, they'll have a weaker acid solution (Specific Gravity) in tropical climes; but it's still sulfuric acid and water..

In high temperature (tropical) environments, the battery acid (electrolyte) is more active; allowing a weaker (lower specific gravity) solution to provide similar results, with less deterioration of the battery plates and separator.

A full charge is represented by the following approximate* Specific Gravities:
Tropical ± 1.210 - 1.230
Temperate ± 1.260 - 1.280
* Some manufacturers use higher specific gravities, in an attempt to gain additional Ah capacity, but at the cost of a shorter service life.

Higher Specific Gravity:
More capacity
Shorter life
Higher momentary discharge rates
More standing loss
More freeze resistance
vs
Lower Specific Gravity:
Less capacity
Longer life
Lower momentary discharge rates
Less standing loss
Less freeze resistance

Interestingly enough I spoke with an engineer at East Penn yesterday and all East Penn batteries leave the factory the same way with the same electrolyte. Other than JCI they are one of the largest suppliers of "marine batteries" in the US...

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Wow you were 100% correct!!!

Just talked to them and they are $87.00 each + $24.00 core, $1.50 solid waste fee and tax. Total cost per battery = $117.81. They are new and they claim they make zero money on their "carry out" batteries.

Up here my core is $10.00 but I often have the cores......

I guess we just have a smaller volume up here. I just spoke with my distributor and told him what I found for T105 prices. "Holy $hit" was his response. He was apologetic but said his cost on them is $117.00 each and for up here he is the big volume distributor.... It is frustrating that there is sooooo much markup and volume discounting on batteries that there can be this much spread.

So if in Florida buy your batteries at Affordable Carts!!! By the time I paid core and all the fees to get them here I'd be at close to what my cost is in Maine.....

And I thought the spread between WM and Sam's Club was offensive, at least those batteries have different stickers........

I would think if you took a truck load out of state, you would save the solid waste fee & sales tax.

Interesting how core varies so much, I assume it's tied to the recycled lead market.

I believe the Ft. Myers distributor is:

Locations | Safe Start

[hellosailor]

"Interesting how core varies so much," Subject to local legislation, which can set the core value regardless of the weight or scrap value, and often does.

Dodging sales tax...would depend on how brave the seller was. After all, if his truck goes someplace, his business has gone someplace, kaching, there's the tax venue and the need for a business license in the destination state.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Maine-
Bear in mind, ignoring where the Trojan plant may be, there's an AWFUL lot more golf courses, and golf carts, in Florida than in Maine. Hell, there are huge retirement communities and municipalities where they allow the damned things on the streets and build special paths for them. I'd expect 20? 50? times the sales volume has got to impact the prices.
And if those batteries come from the Georgia plant? Yeah, that's 1000 miles less diesel on every delivery to Florida. Y'all just geographically disadvantaged up there.<G>

Per Affordable Golf Carts salesman, 90% of the carts they sell/rent never see a golf course.

So, with the amount of golf courses at the highest per capita in the US and all the retirement communities, yep, there are a bunch of carts (and batteries) down here.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"A Trojan wet battery, ...should read 12.73V."
Which puts them about 1/10 volt higher than the usual, which can only happen if they are doing something "different" chemically. Which comes back to the question about Centennial or another brand. If Trojan are doing something different, perhaps in the mix of metals they use or in the quality of the lead they use (which is almost always entirely recycled lead).
It would not be unusual if that meant a certain amount were "off spec" and diverted to another label simply as a quality control solution. In any case, when two different names come out of one plant, there's usually some difference. Maybe just in how much is spent on marketing--but often in the product. You often can't tell without asking them about it.

Not really I measure all sorts of "wet" brands at 12.7+/- when 100% full and after resting 24+ hours.. I have five used wets on my bench right now and all but one have been sitting for at least 48 hours. The fifth one was still on the charger from yesterday. I just went out and measured them. I just moved the JCI battery to the charger...

JCI/WalMart Group 31 date code 2008 - 12.69V
WM Seavolt/Deka Starting Group 27 Date Code 2009 = 12.71V
WM Seavolt/Deka Dual Purpose Group 27 Date code 2007 = 12.7V
Deka Marine Master Group 27 Date Code 2007 = 12.72V

These batteries were all to good to return for core so for the $10.00 I keep them to get customers through in a pinch until I can get them new batts. They cycle on and off my bench charger about once per week in warm weather.

I use the JCI/WalMart group 31 as my inverter battery for my 1500W heat gun while working on mooring sailed boats.... It gets ABUSED and is still going strong and still has a resting voltage of about 12.7V - 12.71V...

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Interesting how core varies so much," Subject to local legislation, which can set the core value regardless of the weight or scrap value, and often does.

Ah yes, the politicians! Maybe with so many batteries down here, they keep the core price up to ensure people don't simply throw 'em overboard!

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dodging sales tax...would depend on how brave the seller was. After all, if his truck goes someplace, his business has gone someplace, kaching, there's the tax venue and the need for a business license in the destination state.

Yeah, I would think a business license would be required.

[sailorboy1]

I'll post numbers I recorded this weekend. But I did that note that the voltage dropped more than 0.1 on another "real life test" (but I believe I have a problem still and it has been going on for 11 years).

I will post my numbers in a new thread as it really isn't about the topic of this one. I believe I know my problem, but this will be "experts" chance to tell me or call me "something". OK to call me an idiot if you do it nicely.

[capngeo]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Yes. Thanks for catching that. The voltage under load was 12.35VDC, not 13.35VDC. Unfortunately, I can't edit the error now...too late I guess.

I've now taken 45AH out of the 225AH battery bank or about 20%, so I'm going to begin the overnite 3.5A load soon. Resting voltage is 12.53 about 3 mins after removing load, and still increasing. I'll give it 10 minutes as before, then start the overnite.

Thanks, again for the catch.

Bill

Fixed it for you

[btrayfors]

Thanks. Guess you've got the Mojo :-)

Bill

[kmacdonald]

My Trojan SCS150 reads exactly 12.73V when fully charged.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Wow you were 100% correct!!!

Just talked to them and they are $87.00 each + $24.00 core, $1.50 solid waste fee and tax. Total cost per battery = $117.81. They are new and they claim they make zero money on their "carry out" batteries.

Up here my core is $10.00 but I often have the cores......

I guess we just have a smaller volume up here. I just spoke with my distributor and told him what I found for T105 prices. "Holy $hit" was his response. He was apologetic but said his cost on them is $117.00 each and for up here he is the big volume distributor.... It is frustrating that there is sooooo much markup and volume discounting on batteries that there can be this much spread.

So if in Florida buy your batteries at Affordable Carts!!! By the time I paid core and all the fees to get them here I'd be at close to what my cost is in Maine.....

And I thought the spread between WM and Sam's Club was offensive, at least those batteries have different stickers........

Reviving an old thread with a new question.

The local Sam's Club sells Duracell 4DL commercial batteries. I looked at the specs and tracked the model number back to East Penn Manufacturing who seems to be recommended as a good source but I'm not exactly sure what this "commercial" battery is. The specs give cranking and cold cranking amps like a starting battery but other comments in the spec sheet indicate use as a deep cycle type applications.

I think it's an AGM but the data sheet in places mentions hybrid technology. Also they're only $142.00 which is not in line with other AGM battery prices. And if they really are AGM with the potential problems with early death if you can't keep them topped off or at least a frequent full charge then I don't think I want then anyway as I plan to spend a lot of time off the grid.

So any idea what these are? Would they be an acceptable replacement for standard lead/acid technology?

By the way, in case anyone asks, Trojan T-105 6 volts will not fit without major carpentry work and I have plenty of other projects to keep me busy for now so I am married to the 4D size or something that will fit in a 4D box including the height.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by skipmac

By the way, in case anyone asks, Trojan T-105 6 volts will not fit without major carpentry work and I have plenty of other projects to keep me busy for now so I am married to the 4D size or something that will fit in a 4D box including the height.

Are you positive they wouldn't fit? I put 2 of the Penn GC15 230AH 6v batteries in my 4d boxes.