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notz · 01-05-2020, 08:49

I did a complete redesign of my panel on my previous boat Grace. I ended up using Blue Seas for the breakers, and their modular 360 system, plus Front Panel Express for the actual panel. The full write up of the completed solution is at https://seabits.com/completed-navigation-panel/

The redesign and thoughts behind what I chose I wrote about here https://seabits.com/redesigning-the-...ctrical-panel/

If I were to do it now, I would probably not use 360 breakers as they take up more room than traditional breakers, and there aren't as many "modules" available.

Depending on the size of the boat, I think I'd consider some of the smaller software controlled breaker solutions like CZone or Maretron's version.

Cheechako · 01-05-2020, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrelweb

One other item to think of is to relocate the 120 volt breaker panel to another location.

I do not agree that the 120 volt panel needs to be next to the vessels 12 or 24 volt panels.

Especially when you have reduced volume behind some panels. Also makes it safer when you rewire or need to work on a vessel's 12 volt system.

I like to have the 120 volt panel as close to the shore power plug as l can find. I also use 10 gage wire from the shore plug to the main panel on 30 amp services.

Sometimes you have to build a new location for the 120 volt panel, but usually it is easy to find a new spot....

My two cents here, just what l like to do on my boats.

Darrel

I think it's a good thought too.
As far as panel organization, I think having nav breakers in one area would be nice.
I bought a custom small-ish panel from a guy on Ebay a few years back, it was very nicely done to my specification and not near as much $ as bigger companies.

sailingharry · 01-05-2020, 14:08

I find boats to have a rediculous array of breakers. Not even switches, but breakers! Our boat has about 8 breakers for cabin lights. EIGHT! (Ok, maybe 6). One, maybe two. Granted, it was installed in 1998 when everything was halogen, and now it's all LED, but even then. Look at the real estate it takes! And flipping all those breakers on and off. They aren't labeled well, and I can't imagine how to make a logical label for that many light breakers.

And other redundancy. One breaker for running lights and a different one for the compass light (make them the same, they are needed at the same time). One breaker for the autopilot, one for the instruments, one for the VHF -- really? And four for running lights (red, green, stern, masthead)? How about one for the red/green/stern, and one for the masthead. Or one for all nav lights, and a toggle switch to add the masthead when you are motoring.

OK, that's a rant. Sorry.

Harry

sailormed · 01-05-2020, 14:14

So if the autopilot quits because of a short you also lose all your instruments?

u4ea32 · 01-05-2020, 14:41

I organized like an engineer: bigger breakers at the top of the panel, to smaller breakers at the bottom. Sorta clumped things together, but not really.

All AC on the left column, DC on the middle and right columns.

A bundle of wires from each column go to distinct terminal blocks, and the circuits from those terminal blocks go to the devices: so add or remove a circuit, and the wires on the panel itself are not changed. This avoids damaging the breakers. Cheap and easy to swap out a stripped terminal blocks.

The positive 12v wire from the top breaker in the middle stack of breakers goes to the top connector (screw) on the middle terminal block. So I don't need to label the wires back there, its clear which breaker goes to which screw on each terminal block.

The bundle of wires between each stack of breakers is in a loop, so the door and panel can be removed and worked on without necessarily disconnecting the panel from the terminal blocks and bus bars.

u4ea32 · 01-05-2020, 14:43

This shows the terminal blocks and bus bars a bit better

The middle bit at an angle is the bus bar, for 12v ground. The terminal blocks for the 12v positives are on each end. Note the bundles of red from the panel to each terminal block. Grounds are of course tied together.

The blue is "110v+" (I know, I know), and there is a bus bar for "110v negative" (I know, I know) not so visible behind it. So the 110v neutral is tied together, and the breakers switch 110v hot.

windpipe · 01-05-2020, 17:14

Hello, all. I am working on an upgrade of my chartplotter and radar. I hope someone can help clarify a basic problem:

One straightforward question: Is it frowned upon to connect duplex cables to a bus bar, with the positive and negative adjacent to each other on the bus bar?

My chart plotter and radar junction box RI10 have the positive, negative and control wires duplexed together. This is the case for most electronics, it seems.

On the old install (previous plotter), there was no switched circuit for the plotter or radar. MFD and radome were wired directly in to the positive and negative posts on an Empirbus distribution unit. I do not have an open switch to take the positive and negative to.

It would be ideal to have a switch, but a) I would prefer not to have a one-off switch on my realitively clean-looking switch panel. And b) even though there is one unused button on the Empirbus panel, I'm not sure it's worth having the Empirbus reprogrammed?

Midnight Son · 02-05-2020, 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by windpipe

Hello, all. I am working on an upgrade of my chartplotter and radar. I hope someone can help clarify a basic problem:

One straightforward question: Is it frowned upon to connect duplex cables to a bus bar, with the positive and negative adjacent to each other on the bus bar?

My chart plotter and radar junction box RI10 have the positive, negative and control wires duplexed together. This is the case for most electronics, it seems.

On the old install (previous plotter), there was no switched circuit for the plotter or radar. MFD and radome were wired directly in to the positive and negative posts on an Empirbus distribution unit. I do not have an open switch to take the positive and negative to.

It would be ideal to have a switch, but a) I would prefer not to have a one-off switch on my realitively clean-looking switch panel. And b) even though there is one unused button on the Empirbus panel, I'm not sure it's worth having the Empirbus reprogrammed?

From your post, you seem to have confused a bus bar and a terminal strip???
Cheers

sailingharry · 02-05-2020, 05:43

If indeed you meant a terminal strip, which is a piece of plastic with two rows of screws with adjacent screws connected to each other, then it is very common practice to use a hot and ground next to each other. For instance, my bilge pump and bilge pump switch go to a three slot terminal strip. One is hot, one is ground, and one is switched. Decent terminal strips (most are) have a barrier wall between terminals, so there is little risk of accidental shorting.

sailingharry · 02-05-2020, 07:00

Shorts tend to be in wiring. It is very difficult to create a short inside a piece of electronics that does not self-resolve by melting out the internals. A condition in an autopilot that would be a persistent short would likely be in the RAM. So simply not using the autopilot or powering it down would keep the instruments alive. But yes, I guess that it would be the ultimate in reliability to have a separate breaker for every single piece of equipment on the boat. One for depth, one for speed, one for wind, one for autopilot, one for AIS, one for GPS, one for port running light, one for starboard running light, one for stern light, one for masthead light, one for compass light, one for VHF, one for single side band, one for charger for handheld VHF, etcetera etcetera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailormed

So if the autopilot quits because of a short you also lose all your instruments?

sanibel sailor · 02-05-2020, 08:20

Everything really depends upon the complexity of the vessel. There is no room on board my boat for the beautiful leaded glass installation fit for a classic 70 footer. My system would be grossly inadequate for her needs.

Mine is quite simple, a great upgrade from the previous stock crappy plastic Bass 18 position panel that included both AC and DC. My AC system is extremely simple, outlets on a battery charger. There is wiring but no water heater. All my instruments are on one circuit, auto pilot separate. Radio includes both the fixed mount VHF and stereo, cigarette lighter, USB port, etc. at NAV station. Each bilge pump gets its own circuit. Separate circuits for deck level running lights and tricolor. Steaming light separate. I have a diode set up to turn on the Compass light (and the lights under the dodger) when either nav circuit is on. Turning on the steaming light automatically turns on the engine panel lights. I figure neither one should need to be turned on without the other and having a dark engine panel is a good reminder to turn on the streaming light. The illumination for the breaker lights and either come on automatically when the NAV lights come on, be off or turn down independently. Everything is labeled.

windpipe · 02-05-2020, 11:16

Right, I meant terminal strip. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Son

From your post, you seem to have confused a bus bar and a terminal strip???
Cheers

windpipe · 02-05-2020, 11:17

Okay, thanks. I've got a plan, now!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingharry

If indeed you meant a terminal strip, which is a piece of plastic with two rows of screws with adjacent screws connected to each other, then it is very common practice to use a hot and ground next to each other. For instance, my bilge pump and bilge pump switch go to a three slot terminal strip. One is hot, one is ground, and one is switched. Decent terminal strips (most are) have a barrier wall between terminals, so there is little risk of accidental shorting.

Discovery 15797 · 02-05-2020, 13:21

I am going to send you in a completely different route and suggest you look at this BlueSea article.

Simplify your breaker panel and use distribution boxes to isolate systems.

Essentially the idea is to move the "protective device" closer to the power source (thing being protected) to reduce long wire runs. Also, it allows for isolating individual circuits (important when troubleshooting an electrical problems), and easy expansion of additional devices in the future,

Think of it this way...let's say a pump is failing and drawing too much current but not quite enough to trip the breaker (immediately). The wires leading to that pump will start to get hot. The wires closer to the pump will get hotter quicker. If the circuit protection device is closer to the pump it will trip more quickly compared to a protection device located 20 feet away.

Most people think about short circuits wrt electrical wiring. An overload that can cause insulation to melt eventually leading to a spark producing short circuit that ignites the melting insulation is what causes most boat fires.

Don't get caught up in the whole fuse vs. cb debate...ignore it....it's mostly nonsense. You can use either ABYC fuse blocks or distributed circuit breakers...your choice. (The reason why electronic equipment manufacturers still put inline fuses (which are crap) is because they know people will hook these things up to a circuit breaker that is oversized, or has multiple circuits on it.)

But I'll have to admit...those huge circuit breaker panels that take up half a bulkhead with red and green lights and lots of meters are pretty damn fancy and look very impressive.