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Old 30-01-2015, 06:29   #121
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
The number one reason not to install the inverter above the batteries is!

They are not ignition protected.

No, the number one reason not to install above the batteries is the possibility of accidentally shorting the batteries by dropping tools, wire, etc.

Now look closely at the inverters, they will have adhesive labels warning not to install in the same compartment as the batteries. So will the installation instructions state; Do not install in the same compartment as the batteries.

Funny, my Victron has no such warning. It warns not to install directly above the batteries for the reason I mention above, but nothing about explosion or being in the battery compartment itself. In fact, it urges in several places to place the installation as close to the batteries as possible.

Our previous Outback actually includes a description of how to install it in the same enclosure as the batteries.

Furthermore, many off-grid applications have inverters and batteries living just fine together in closed spaces.


Think about this would you install your stereo equipment in the same environment?

As I mentioned, we have a couple of pieces of electronics in our battery compartment with no problems.

As to welding cable, it is the insulation thickness, the temp rating, does it meet low smoke requirement? Most are rated 60C so you will need to increase the cable size to meet the rating as a 105C rated cable, why, because its in an engine room.

Frugal is finding the best price on what ever products that meet the needs....NOT the cheapest you can find.

Lloyd
The OP is not installing this in an engine room - only a battery compartment.

I fully agree with your last sentence, and believe it is the nut to crack in this debate.

Mark
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Old 30-01-2015, 06:29   #122
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
100% bullshit? Well, sunshine, You seem to think that you're going to just keep beating people with your opinion until they agree with you. I say copper is copper and that electrons cannot read the West marine receipt in the bag with it. \

As for being called an idiot by a stinkpot driver who is mentally unable to read and compare mechanical and eletrical specs, well, it's kinda like being called ugly by a frog. yeah, I might be an idiot, as you claim.

But at least I know what locomotive and welding cables are. Copper is copper, whether you personally understand it or not.

Did you even READ what an engineer was trying to tell you here? Or were you too busy telling us all just ONE more time ( in case we missed it the first few times?) how YOU do it on YOUR boat?

Thanks, but my boat doesn't look like that.
I'm only trying to beat some sense into your head. Sure "copper is copper" but not all copper wire is the same. You are claiming that it is by saying "copper is copper".

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you, you already know it all. I just want to caution those who don't know that your statements are inaccurate and should not be relied upon.
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Old 30-01-2015, 06:32   #123
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

The reason welding cable is generally not used is due to the jacket construction. EPDM rubber, what most welding cable is made from, is highly flexible, a desired characteristic for welding cable, but is not immune to oils, gasses etc..

I have re-wired far to many boats with rotting EPDM welding cable, at a high cost to the owner, because the EPDM jacket failed and rotted in engine room or bilge pass through spaces.. I had a Defever trawler two years ago with welding cable that looked like chewed bubble gum, literally swelled, deformed and melted. It literally fell apart in your fingers. It caused massive DC corrosion issues, among other problems...

The wire inside is perfectly fine, and IMHO tinning is irrelevant in properly made battery or inverter cables using a proper wire that resists oil and chemical attack.. The stranding is very close to, and in some cases identical, to what we use on boat cable, but the EPDM rubber jacketing is the issue.

If you can find a PVC or thermoplastic welding cable, and they do exist, then it can be fine. I would however suggest finding one that is 105C rated, that meets UL burn tests etc.... The problem is this type of welding cable costs about the same as UL1426 wire...
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Old 30-01-2015, 06:40   #124
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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I'm still trying to learn something. Take us through the CFR regarding recreational vessels and show how we end up having to meet ABYC recommendations on our recreational vessels to comply with federal law. You posted the ABYC boilerplate as US law. I am not ready to say you are wrong. But I would like to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

I am not saying the ABYC recommendations are no good. The ones I have read are quite sensible. But I genuinely want to know this legal trail because as someone pointed out, insurance companies like to point to ABYC as a rule. It may be important for people to know when their insurance company is holding them to a higher standard than the federal government.
Boat builders are supposed to follow the ABYC, USCG, UL and other standards when building boats.

As owners of recreational boats, we are not legally bound by these standards. We can do anything we want, no matter how stupid. We can use solid building wire from the home center for distributing electricity and we can use Sears garden hose for our water distribution system.

The issue is, these regulatory bodies have research and historical data to guide them in setting standards. As recreational boaters, we do not have this information available to us. We might be an electrician (or engineer) or plumber on land but that doesn't make all the decisions we might make on a boat good decisions.

The ABYC and other standards provide us a way of doing things "right" on a boat without having to try to consider all the possible consequences of doing things the way we might do on land.
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Old 30-01-2015, 07:28   #125
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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The ABYC and other standards provide us a way of doing things "right" on a boat without having to try to consider all the possible consequences of doing things the way we might do on land.
It could also be said that the ABYC provides guidance on what should be considered the bare minimum in terms of doing it safely. Many of us who do this work every day exceed ABYC bare minimums on a regular basis.

As a case in point it took me more than 5 years of continual pushing, prodding & pleading the case etc. just to get this one single line added to H-23. This had been code on land for decades but completely ignored on boats.....

"H-23 - 23.8.13

Water heaters or system must have a means of tempering the water to 125 ░F (51░C) or less."


Five years on what should be common sense 101. That is 5 years more than there ever should have been, of children and adults being burned and scalded by marine water heaters that are engine HX heated. Some of these engines are now running at 190-200F and are directly connected to the water heaters HX....



In my own frustration the organization is often far to slow to react to changes and often far behind land based common sense safety codes.



It is however very much evidence based, so that is good. The standards take lots of volunteer time to develop, research & execute etc. and they still sometimes miss the bare minimum mark many of us would like to see but they do evolve and change with the times even if a bit slower than some of us would like to see....



I had been installing thermostatic mixing valves for 10+ years prior to even bringing this to the ABYC. This is but one example of above and beyond the bare minimum. I don't personally consider the standards the best way but rather the minimum way I need to do things.



As an ABYC installer I simply must do things to the standard, or better, or I open myself up to liability. As a boat owner you only need to answer to the surveyor/your insurance company or a judge if you do something so egregiously outside the realm of safety, and injure someone, that it brings criminal or gross negligence charges.......
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Old 30-01-2015, 07:30   #126
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The reason welding cable is generally not used is due to the jacket construction. EPDM rubber, what most welding cable is made from, is highly flexible, a desired characteristic for welding cable, but is not immune to oils, gasses etc..

The wire inside is perfectly fine, and IMHO tinning is irrelevant in properly made battery or inverter cables using a proper wire that resists oil and chemical attack.. The stranding is very close to, and in some cases identical, to what we use on boat cable, but the EPDM rubber jacketing is the issue.

If you can find a PVC or thermoplastic welding cable, and they do exist, then it can be fine. I would however suggest finding one that is 105C rated, that meets UL burn tests etc.... The problem is this type of welding cable costs about the same as UL1426 wire...
This is the point I made in post #63. However, sailorchic and others came back with examples of PVC/non-rubber insulation welding cable that costs less than UL1426 - some was even rated higher.

And used outside of bilges, engine rooms, etc, as the OP originally proposed, would be no issue with EPDM. At least it hasn't for ours in the past 17yrs.

Prepare for your opinion to be attacked as equal to using Romex on boats...

Mark
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Old 30-01-2015, 07:38   #127
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
It could also be said that the ABYC provides guidance on what should be considered the bare minimum in terms of doing it safely....................
I wouldn't disagree and I think I posted something to the effect that I would exceed these standards to do a job the way I thought was "right". I'm not a professional installer so I really only work on my own boat. I appreciate that you work to the ABYC standards and If I needed work done that I couldn't do myself I would look for a shop or person who worked to those standards.
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Old 30-01-2015, 07:41   #128
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
This is the point I made in post #63. However, sailorchic and others came back with examples of PVC/non-rubber insulation welding cable that costs less than UL1426 - some was even rated higher.

And used outside of bilges, engine rooms, etc, as the OP originally proposed, would be no issue with EPDM. At least it hasn't for ours in the past 17yrs.

Prepare for your opinion to be attacked as equal to using Romex on boats...

Mark
In the quantities I buy UL1426 battery cable it is cheaper than UL 105C PVC welding cable.

One thing not mentioned is OCP and the desired trip rating of over current protection for main banks that may be called on to at one point start the motor. A 105C wire has a higher max ampacity for OCP and can utilize a larger fuse and still remain below the 100% or 150% ABYC Table VI standard for max ampacity.

Course I also recognize that the average boater is not buying 250-500' spools of 1/0 to 4/0 wire.... To get the equivalent welding cable is still not inexpensive and the specs often leave a bit to be desired.

I have seen welding cable outside bilges & engine spaces last 30+ years but in engine spaces I've seen it eaten/destroyed in a year.
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Old 30-01-2015, 12:12   #129
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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And used outside of bilges, engine rooms, etc, as the OP originally proposed, would be no issue with EPDM. At least it hasn't for ours in the past 17yrs.
Persona; anecdotal information really means little compared to the resources of the standards groups.
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Old 30-01-2015, 12:38   #130
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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After 100 posts now somebody wants to get practical? You can't do that on CF else somebody will whip out a code book and beat you silly with it.

I was practical allmost at the beginning of this topic.
Theoretically we can use every wire as long as we talking about moving the energy from one spot to the next.
But there are more issues to a wire than just moving energy like insulation factor, enviroment, safety and health.
So each wire is designed for an application. Those applications have been studied with tons of expensive tests wich resulted in a Spec.Those specs have been revised to further assure applications.
Don┤t know about the maritime spec for wires but I happen to be in the situation to deal with a more than 70 paragraph EXANE wire spec for railroad wires. I asume after lots of accidents in the maritime world with loss of many lifes the quality of the spec is the same. For liability proceedures it was determined that wires also have to be properly marked.
Reason for all of that was to make shure if something happens it can be tecnically determined why it happened and whoms responsablity it was because once it happened it┤s to late.

I understand the reason for this topic is to find a better solution for them nice and new inverters than the engine room. That certainly is an upgrade for the boat if all other implicated tecnical requierements are fullfilled wich definitly imply a wireing of the system according to spec.

If for any reason this can not be accomplished, well I guess U have to do without as long as U understand what U are doing

Certainly this will affect the quality of the whole installation.

In this case it doesn┤t mean U canĘt use any typ of wire but there are consequences.

I┤m signing out of this topic
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Old 30-01-2015, 13:27   #131
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Persona; anecdotal information really means little compared to the resources of the standards groups.
Are you talking about the resources and standard groups who have failed in several examples given in this thread?

Are you discounting Mainsail's many years of professional observation also?

Can you site a personal example where welding cable insulation has failed when not exposed to oils or corrosive gasses?

You are simply against anything not labeled "marine" being used on a boat - even when others are showing you that the specifications EXCEED marine-standard wire. Nobody has argued that wire not suitable for an application be used - only that there are suitable options outside "marine" for some applications.

Before you go on again about how your expertise doesn't need explaining and shouldn't be questioned, perhaps you would like to have another go at explaining the correct usage and meaning of "amp-hour"?

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Old 30-01-2015, 16:13   #132
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Sailor Chick,

I'm also guessing, that your interpretations of the various codes, and rules, are also worth, what you were paid...notta

It's one thing to add your thoughts as a member, but a whole nother, to hold yourself out as a PE, without any liability to what you say.

In the end I also doubt you are willing to warrant your interpretations of various of the maritime codes/rules, to the extent someone depends on your advice, and follows it.


Yea, I think not.

Lloyd
Lloyd, you are such a sweet heart. Nice ad hominem BTW.

Nothing I posted was an interpretation of the code. I was just repeating what the code says. If I am wrong, please inform me where I have mis-interpited CFR 46 and 33.

Mind you, I've been looking at codes (Building, NFPA including NFPA 70 and a whole heck of others and standards for 30 odd years and yes in relationship to my designs as an engineer, which I have and do stand behind. I've read a goodly part of CFR 33 and CFR 46 as it applies to recreational boat. Just for fun.

Your right, its just my opinion, which is typically worth what is paid for it. Here on CF its generally worth less then a cup of coffee, or about the same are yours, I'm guessing.

I, unlike many here, have spend a whole hell of a lot of time reading codes and understanding codes. I still read codes several times a week. even now on the hook. I do a bit of engineering for folks in Texas and DC. I get hired because as the owner of one of the firms I design for said, "he likes working for highly competent engineers". His words, not mine.

On the 2kv locomotive cable. The inner jacket is epdm, the outer jacket is polyamide, Nylon which is fuel safe. Least we forget that locomotives are diesel fuel powered now a days. it only has a 90C temperature rating, so slightly off the 110C marine rating.
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Old 30-01-2015, 20:16   #133
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

FEDERAL LAW
183.430 - Conductors in Circuits of Less Than 50 Volts

(a) Each conductor in a circuit that has a nominal voltage of less than 50 volts must:
(1) Meet the requirements of 183.435; or
(2) Meet:
(i) The insulating material temperature rating requirements of SAE Standard J378; and
(ii) SAE Standard J1127 or SAE Standard 1128.
(b) This section does not apply to communication systems; electronic navigation equipment, resistance conductors that control circuit amperage; and pigtails of less than seven inches of exposed length.
This section allows alternate choices of conductor requirements for circuits less than 50 volts. Conductors for circuits less than 50 volts may be used if they:
(a) meet the requirements of SAE J1127 "Battery Cable" or SAE J1128 "Low Tension Primary Cable" and the insulating material temperature rating requirements of SAE J378 "Marine Engine Wiring" such as those designated:
GPT, HDT, SGT, STS, HTS, and SXL, or
(b) are classified as moisture resistant and flame retardant in Article 310 of the National Electrical Code, such as those designated:
THW, TW, THWN, XHHW, MTS, or
(c) are flexible cords type SO, STO ST, SJO, SJT, SJTO, SE, SEO, SJ, SJEO, SJTOO, or STOO listed in Article 400 of the National Electrical Code (see Table 6), or
(d) are conductors that meet the IEEE Standard 45, such as those designated:
R, B, T, V, AV, TA, M, S, or
(e) are conductors that meet the requirements of UL Standard 1426.
Conductors for circuits of 50 volts or more must comply with 183.435
Conductors, as purchased, often do not indicate whether or not they conform with the above requirements and standards. If the conductors or their packaging are not so marked, then an alternate means of assurance of compliance should be obtained. Certification of compliance by the wire vendor is one acceptable means.
NOTE PERMITTED EXCEPTIONS 183.430(b)

TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW
  • All conductors for use in circuits of less than 50 volts meet 183.435, or,
  • Meet the requirements of SAE J1127 or SAE J1128 and the insulating material temperature requirements of SAE Standard J378.

Sailor Chic, not ad hominem...just disappointed, from a professional stand point.

Lloyd


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Lloyd, you are such a sweet heart. Nice ad hominem BTW.

Nothing I posted was an interpretation of the code. I was just repeating what the code says. If I am wrong, please inform me where I have mis-interpited CFR 46 and 33.

Mind you, I've been looking at codes (Building, NFPA including NFPA 70 and a whole heck of others and standards for 30 odd years and yes in relationship to my designs as an engineer, which I have and do stand behind. I've read a goodly part of CFR 33 and CFR 46 as it applies to recreational boat. Just for fun.

Your right, its just my opinion, which is typically worth what is paid for it. Here on CF its generally worth less then a cup of coffee, or about the same are yours, I'm guessing.

I, unlike many here, have spend a whole hell of a lot of time reading codes and understanding codes. I still read codes several times a week. even now on the hook. I do a bit of engineering for folks in Texas and DC. I get hired because as the owner of one of the firms I design for said, "he likes working for highly competent engineers". His words, not mine.

On the 2kv locomotive cable. The inner jacket is epdm, the outer jacket is polyamide, Nylon which is fuel safe. Least we forget that locomotives are diesel fuel powered now a days. it only has a 90C temperature rating, so slightly off the 110C marine rating.
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Old 30-01-2015, 21:00   #134
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

LOL, So gee, reading the SAE J1127 battery cable standard, which is one of two SAE standards allowed by 33 CFR 183.430, I don't see where the 2kv locomotive cable does not meet that standard. Pretty sure some welding cable (but not all) comply with J1127 or 1128 also. Oh the inner insulation layer of epdm may not meet the oil test, but the outer insulation layer would pass it with flying colors.

Just for fun I read SAE J1128 too. Minor differences. Then I grabbed IEEE 45, boy that is a bit dry.

But lets say that 2kv locomotive cable did not meet J1128 or J1127, it still meets IEEE 45, so its good.


I try not to disappointing.

Like I've said, I've read a bit of CFR 33 including 183.430. I keep copies of them and many more on my PC. You're going to need to try harder Lloyd.

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Old 30-01-2015, 21:07   #135
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Persona; anecdotal information really means little compared to the resources of the standards groups.
Ron, WADR, nonsense.

Most folks know Maine Sail's background and credentials. Real world.

Wrong response on your part.
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