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Old 14-02-2018, 12:29   #136
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

They are specified by the technical data from the factory to have an operation temperature range between -45 to 80C. I will newer be in such extreme conditions with my batteries. -45C is far away from what we experience in our winters. Prove it's not true.

Even if they cheat "a little", there is a lot of room between 0 and -45, so I am pretty confident it will work for me just fine - needless to say, I plan to sail in climates with 20C+ so for the boat use case - I will be never close to freezing with them.

It's OK that you want to prove the spec independently.

If I say - i know a guy has put his cells in the fridge and charged them - you will probably insist to provide you a copy of his master degree of battery science or something else, or will ask to repeat the experiment 5000 times to prove they will survive 5000 cycles and are not damaged by charging.

Proof the opposite if you are so passionate about the topic - you have the gear to do so. I guess it would be a bombshell on youtube. There are so many people out there using Winston cells - you'll break some click records.

You don't need to go the whole nine yards down to -45C, just try -10C or -20C (freezer) - if your claim is right - its easy to show - isn't it?

This cells are very popular in Europe. Maybe in the US you prefer another manufacturer that is not on the EU market.

I read your article, there are many valid points between a lot of disclaimer and warnings - a little too biased review for my taste..
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Old 14-02-2018, 12:30   #137
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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No problem, I will check his website out.

Everybody is providing voluntarily information in a open forum like this, claiming something is wrong, specifications are marketing bla, bashing one of the market leader in the industry / and the whole technology - without proof that the spec are not met by the product is just a bad behavior - Winston is not in the forum and cannot defend themselves and I am not in the position nor do I feel the necessity to do this as a proxy.

For me it sounds like trolling.
Not trolling at all.

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If he is really a professional in that field - than it's even worse. First of all - sub-zero charging is not relevant for marine use,
Here in Maine, and for many world cruisers who venture to the high latitudes, a number of my customers do, sub freezing charging is a fact of life.

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second he could make his own research and prove the specs are wrong.
I have done well in excess of 2000+ hours of testing on LFP specific areas. I can only do so much. At this moment my tester is running a shallow cycling test to see what impact holding cells in the upper SOC range has on cell capacity (think solar and LFP).

At some point I need to rely on University or third party industry testing data. None of which I can find for Yttrium doped cells and charging at sub freezing temps.. I'd love to not worry about charging Winston cells as low as 0F but can find nothing, other than Winston's data, that backs up the claim.

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My feeling is, he wants to sell some boxes and bashes the competition because he fears successful DIY implementations.
You'd be 100% wrong. I don't sell any LFP products nor do I even consult on it any more unless the job is local and they come to me... My information is merely to share what I have learned and to try and keep the world of LFP on boats safe.

Unfortunately there are a ton of shysters out their willing to pick your pockets in regards to LFP. It's sad really. Many, many a boater has built a DIY pack based on my article and I know a few of them are here on CF. Yep I actually help folks DIY...

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I have made my verdict on the cells and will use them regardless of this comments. I am sure other will make their own conclusions too.
I don't doubt you will. I use those cells too, good cells, but so are CALB, Sinopoly and others, but I will not charge any of them below 0C including Winston LYP.....

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This bashing is very common in the industry btw., have had similar discussions with Victron , Mastervolt and lot's of the "system integrator's". They do not like the Idea of DIY solutions at all and always try to scare people to sell them the only safe solution - the LFP batteries of their own product range - including 5 year of service subscription and remote maintenance over a cloud service around the world for a small fee - pretty arrogant people.
It's not bashing, it is me trying to help keep money in others wallets as best I can. I am not a system integrator and make zero money of LFP at this point in time unless I do an install of a Lithionics/OPE Li3, Mastervolt or Victron system a customer already purchased.

I do not get in-between the customer and the integrator, not worth it due to the after sale support which murders any slight margin one may have made..

I will not install any "drop-in" LFP batteries, unless they have an external com bus and I can see the internal design, layout, schematic and I know what cells are being used etc. etc.. I also won't work on a DIY's pack nor build and sell my own LFP packs. Again, it's just not worth it, at least until we have a standard in-place to build to.

I did used to consult, design and build custom packs but stopped many years ago. I wrote the article to helps to guide DIY's in a build, the decision making process, etc.. How is that me "bashing the competition"..?

I stopped building packs so I could focus on the safety, research and while waiting for the ABYC High Capacity Battery Committee to finalize the standard (probably still over a year out).

The fact is I use Winston cells on my own boat, and they have almost hit 1000 cycles, but if I had charged and used them based on the glossy marketing materials Winston supplied, they be in the scrap pile right now...

All one has to do is look at the results some of the "integrators" have had, with Winston cells, by blindly following their manuals. I have seen tens of thousands of dollars in ruined batteries because both integrators and DIY's failed to do their own homework beyond the glossy marketing pieces and reading only what they wanted to read instead of what they should have read.

No one has to take my word for it, I know you won't, but I am and have been here to share what I have learned through, use, extensive testing and even purposely abusing & destroying LFP cells. I have destroyed no less than 80 cells in testing (both prismatic and cylindrical) to test the safe limits & parameters as related to the way we use, abuse and charge batteries on boats. Some of what I have learned is in the article (which tries to keep it simple) but nowhere near all of it.

Before you pre-judge what I do and who I am, you may want to know more about me. I am here to help, not hurt, but I also won't play the "fan boy" LFP roll as, too many have already been burned by that... You already appear to have all the answers, but some don't.
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Old 14-02-2018, 12:53   #138
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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I stopped building packs so I could focus on the safety, research and while waiting for the ABYC High Capacity Battery Committee to finalize the standard (probably still over a year out).
Hey Mainesail, about that standard... I know it's been a long time coming. Is there any concern amongst the committee that the industry will shift again right as the standard is promulgated?

For example, I have this theory that we'll see cobalt chemistry packs that are well managed start to take over in the coming years, because the financial and physical advantages are pretty significant. At some point the risk of exothermic events should be managed low enough that it becomes societally acceptable -- perhaps that's already the case with residential ESS installed inside homes and EVs cruising around -- and then, presumably, there will be need to be new guidance from the committee?

I also see some convergence finally starting to happen around, for example, SunSpec protocols for control data.

This looks like the kind of dynamic space that a committee will have to be pretty nimble to stay on top of/stay relevant with respect to. Do you have any insight you can share?
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Old 14-02-2018, 12:57   #139
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1400 Ah Lithium from cells

I have built a lifpo4 pack according to Maine sails recommendations and diy guide . All is well , system works great , 3 years in , full time use .

Thanks for all the help Maine sail .

Regards John
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Old 14-02-2018, 14:51   #140
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Not trolling at all.
...
Before you pre-judge what I do and who I am, you may want to know more about me. I am here to help, not hurt, but I also won't play the "fan boy" LFP roll as, too many have already been burned by that... You already appear to have all the answers, but some don't.
Well then I apologize for my tone.

I have done some 3-4 years of watching the development in the RV world, where the smaller Winston are commonly used (100Ah / 160Ah / 200Ah / 400Ah) and I have seen and discussed a lot of installations. I am also in contact with some small-business LFP system kit provider for RV installations and some system integrator, that make the installation on request, they also build some ready to use packs and supply the necessary parts, power solenoids and interface kits.

So here LFP batteries are used by electrical noobs as well as enthusiasts, that discuss for years all topics in several forums. Therefore I am confident, that even normal people can safely use LFP battery installation and be happy with them for years. Once the system is sized, designed and wired up properly it works and does not need user interactions - for questions and problems there is always a helpful forum. There are - as everywhere - issues reported and sorted out and also warnings given. But this applies to all aspects of electrical systems.

So I am optimistic about the development, despite many bigger companies withdraw from the DIY market for obvious reasons. Here is a large community, that builds, uses and supports LiFeYPO4 installations on many vehicles. I am sorry for the US DYI market, that this technology seems to be a little behind or seen with more reservations - usually the States set new trends in technology and is very quick in fostering new business opportunities...

Yes, I have my answers needed I guess, you always learn something new of course, but in general I know what to do, how to do it and what the risks are.

I am still testing now my components and I will install them soon on board, and learn from the results.

So happy testing!
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Old 14-02-2018, 16:53   #141
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Everybody is providing voluntarily information in a open forum like this
I have learned from reading your posts over the past months that a lot of what you believe is not true.

Yes you have been learning, as we all do every day, but I can confirm that many many times I've corrected your misinformation, and never any acknowledgement, never mind thanks.

Some of your contributions do have value, but anything new to me would have a "pound of salt" asterisk next to it until verified by more knowledgeable and reliable sources.

Of which Maine Sail is at the very top of the list. He has forgotten more than hundreds of us here have ever known about DC electrics and LFP specifically.

Your accusing him of self-interested corruption show incredible ignorance, in the face of his many years of selfless and invaluable contributions to the community.
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Old 14-02-2018, 17:50   #142
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

I use a small 20Ah LiFePO4 battery on my small boat. I love it for what it is. Simple setup and only charged with solar, manually turned on and off. I know I and a lot of other cruisers like things VERY simple. The less that can go wrong the less that will go wrong. That being said, large LiFePO4 banks require a lot more complexity in safeguarding the battery or deep pockets to buy new ones if a mistake is made. Charging becomes more complex and costly. The marine market for these large complex LiFePO4 systems isn't very large even though LiFePO4 has all the attributes cruisers are looking for except simplicity and fault tolerance.
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Old 14-02-2018, 18:35   #143
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Well it depends on what you are up to.

2 Fridges + 1 Freezer add up a lot, the washer / dryer for the Admiral, fresh water (watermaker) + hot showers and warm water for the galley, some AC units for cooling or heating for some hours. Its a condomaran...

My intention is to get rid of propane in the galley and use an induction cooktop plus convection oven instead of the propane stuff. All powered by solar (1600Wp).
I am afraid you'll need a lot more solar to realistically cover all that... Just the oven alone would ask for ~3kW (6kWh for 2 hours), which you won't get even if you fully illuminate your panels on the equator at noon. Steering towards realistic conditions, a single 2 hours oven session asks for 6-8 hours of energy collection, meaning the admiral's further domestic needs would be left dry.

As for battery, the 1.4kAh/20kWh of course carries quite a potential, however the only renewable capable of charging it in <1 day is a pair of good hydro generators mounted on a fast boat (useless at anchor though).
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Old 14-02-2018, 19:36   #144
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

I have been reading a ton of info on LiFePO4 battery banks, including Maine sails info, and a ton of other stuff on youtube and elsewhere.... and still confused about it all. To me, it seems like a no brainer. Sure they cost more than lead acid, but the charge cycles make up for that, and the weight difference is significant. Many people are using them without issues. Then I hear on these forums about multiple issues with them failing.
I understand that these cells are NOT drop in replacements for golf cart battery banks or gel cells. But, if your willing to replace the system to get these benefits, it seems like it will. The low temp charging issue for a full time liveaboard should't be a issue. Not using a BMS would be foolish. In fact having a backup to that might not be a bad idea. Bottom balancing them before install is a given it seems. And using a BMS to top balance them too. The new Balmar charger has a lithium setting, and Victrons MPPT is set up for it as well. Don't leave the charger on when you leave the boat, don't over or under charge them, and they should last a very long time. So whats the issue then? Why are "so many" of these failing... .or are they?
Technomadia had some issues with their bank but admitted that it was due to being installed in a unheated bay. The Wynns haven't reported any issues with theirs, either on the RV or in the Cat. Neither one is a electrical engineer.
Having good cells to start with, setting them up correctly with a Good BMS, proper charging and discharging should see them last a long time, and perform outstanding. Well worth the money you spend on them.
Or am I missing something?
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Old 14-02-2018, 20:12   #145
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Or am I missing something?
Yes. The batteries are reliable IF treated right but one over or undercharge ruins the bank. There is no second chance. The BMS's are complicated, expensive, and prone to failure. More than one has failed and ruined expensive battery banks. Charge systems for them are expensive. Like I've and others have said, they check all the boxes for boats except simplicity and fault tolerance.
You can't bottom AND top balance cells. It's one or the other. In boats, top balancing is preferred.
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Old 14-02-2018, 21:18   #146
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Why are "so many" of these failing... .or are they?
I don't think there are that many failures. You hear a lot about them here because debacles are memorable and interesting and get replayed as people share and re-tell the stories. Also, failure analysis is a great way to learn about a complex system, so interested folks with engineering minds fixate on them. (Maybe too much, at times.)

For the most part, it seems like big catastrophic failures that aren't clear Darwin Award candidates seemed to happen more in the past. The community knows a lot more today about how to design for LFP than it did five or eight or ten years ago. The cells are no doubt being made to higher tolerances and with better quality. We have a lot more data about how cell degradation occurs at thermal, SOC, and C-rate boundaries. Modern BMSes are being designed with the benefit of hindsight and with much more care and sophistication, and some now have a substantial positive track record to point to.

There are still good arguments for polar-opposite approaches with different aspects of lithium energy system design, which I suspect is a lot of why it can be so confusing -- top v bottom balancing, BMS v no BMS, etc. These topics generate healthy debate again and again, but there are well-trodden paths through the woods that should yield good to excellent results without having to get a degree in electrochemistry or electrical engineering.

I think LFP really are a "no-brainer" for a boat, as you say. Moreso if one has the cash to buy into an engineered system and/or if one is content with a simpler, lower-capacity 12V design. If you're going to DIY or "go big," the complexity goes up, as do the opportunities to make big mistakes. Like most anything interesting, really.
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Old 14-02-2018, 21:30   #147
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

Nebster pretty much summed it up IMHO.
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Old 15-02-2018, 00:57   #148
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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I have learned from reading your posts over the past months that a lot of what you believe is not true.

Yes you have been learning, as we all do every day, but I can confirm that many many times I've corrected your misinformation, and never any acknowledgement, never mind thanks.
Well thank you than for commenting.

I agree to disagree on many of your statements and complains, but I don't wanted to discuss it in more detail because it distracts from the main topic, which is a practical set-up and use of a large LFP bank, so just decided to not reply on some of them. We are talking all the time about believes, statistics and alternative facts instead of the nitty-gritty aspects of set-up and use of LFP technology, this drives interested boaters away.

There are more specific forums where this stuff should be addressed.
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Old 15-02-2018, 02:08   #149
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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I have been reading a ton of info on LiFePO4 battery banks, including Maine sails info, and a ton of other stuff on youtube and elsewhere.... and still confused about it all. To me, it seems like a no brainer. Sure they cost more than lead acid, but the charge cycles make up for that, and the weight difference is significant. Many people are using them without issues. Then I hear on these forums about multiple issues with them failing....
...
Having good cells to start with, setting them up correctly with a Good BMS, proper charging and discharging should see them last a long time, and perform outstanding. Well worth the money you spend on them.
Or am I missing something?
Reading the CF forum you will find a ton of negative comments on capsizing and sinking cats, if you use this information only you would think catamarans are the most dangerous vessels around.

Same for the LFP. There are failures - no doubt, but it is not the majority of the installations. There are way more successful installations around, also very few use specific LFP chargers - especially in the RV world.

Granted there are better solutions around and the LFP may loose cycles or capacity over time faster with traditional charging. The user simply do not notice it, because they do not test the capacity all the time. They set and forget the system.

Also read the huge warnings of Maine sails's evaluation - seems to be the holy bible for LFP in this forum. I have a different view on the topic and disagree with some statements.

Yes, it is less stressful for a LFP if you do not charge it and keep it at 100%, and yes, it is not necessary to do so. I know, there is a strong believe that the specs of the manufacturer are garbage, there are lots of whitepapers and stuff around. I have white papers in my printer tray too (just joking).

The specs say maximum voltage per cell 4.0V (translates to 16.0V), cell full at 3.65V (translates to 14.6V). initialization of new cells to 4.0V as top balancing. Lowest voltage before damage 2.8V (11.2V)


I am not saying it is a good thing to test the limits - especially not all the time.

Now to some statements in the "bible".
Yes, normal FLA chargers are not good for LFP, especially if they do not have at least a GEL program, that performs a IUoU cycle.

- FLA regimes are designed to equalize the wet cells at 15-16V frequently by boiling the cells for a while from time to time - this is the equivalent to top balancing in the LFP world and a good feature for wet lead acid, but deadly for GEL, AGM and all SLA/VRLA batteries. THIS IS A CLEAR NO-GO! NO EQUALISATION!

- GEL regimes charge in bulk up to 14.4V and stay there for 4 and more hours for absorption in GEL. Then switch to float at 13.6V this is the closest what you can use for LFP if you do not have a programmable charge controller. Not optimal, but doable. Very important - do not use the external temp sensor and turn off temp adjustment of the charging voltage if possible! You want the charging voltage low and not exceeding the 14.4V.
This translates to 3.6V cell voltage, slightly below the full charged.
When the cells reach this point, you can drop charging, the battery is almost full. Now to some scaremongering: if you do not drop charging - there will be anyway no charging current - the cell just remains for the next hours at 3.6V, current will not flow. Well this is not OPTIMAL, but also not FATAL. the cell will be not fried, nor be damaged. Yes, LFP is happier below 90% SOC and best at no use at 40% to the specs.

There is another reason for staying at absorption. Most cell balancer - especially the non programmable - are set to start balancing at 3.5 / 3.55V.
If you just go to a lower voltage and immediately drop charging, they do not have a chance to do their job also they use very low currents to do so (usually 1-2A) and this process take a long time in bigger installs. I know - in the bible there is a strong believe to not balance your cells automatically. But a good BMS should take care on this. Absorption is not all evil.

- It's a no-brainer - a programmable charge controller is best for LFP (and any other chemistry). There you can set charging to fix values and can control all phases according to your needs. Victron has some. And still you want to stay for some time to absorption just for the sake of balancing from time to time, but is is best if you can reduce your balancer to start balancing earlier, so you do not need to go that high (e.g start at charging from 3.45V, shorter absorbtion of 30min - 1h at 14.0V (3.5V).

- Now to FLOAT - the recommendation of Main Sails is to turn it off and cycle your LFP full range. I also disagree with this. LFP are easy handling deep-cycling and you have a lot of cycles before they die. But they live longer as other batteries if they are not deep cycled. Another point is, you want your battery full - you don't know what happens and when you need more battery capacity. You have excess energy for free to charge (solar), but you wait until the battery is empty - this is not a practical use. Float ensures, the battery remains at a acceptable voltage almost fully charged. you can reduce float to a safer Voltage if you can. 13.6V float (GEL) translates to 3.4V/Cell - but the most important thing of float is, all your systems on board are supplied by the available solar energy, no charging and no discharging of the LFP bank, so also NO CYCLES. So float is not all evil too.

I know what happens next - a big outcry - where are the independent university studies that show, battery lifetime at high charge (3.4V) is healthier or as bad as cycling the battery and recharging it then.

Again for the normal user with solar this is the real world use-case.

Of course, you can do your own regime to your liking - even WITH GEL chargers. There are various methods to do so without replacing the dumb charger. Small gadgets like the programmable battery guard can do the trick. It is programmable to switch on and off at given voltages and timers for hysteresis. Another option is to use a battery monitor with programmable relay contact - like the Victron BMV, set the relay to disconnect at 90% SOC, and turn back at 50. This beast will drift, because it never will see SOC 100% to re-sync so the downside is you will have to allow from time to time a full charge - also for top balancing. But this is closest to the recommendations of Maine Marine- if you prefer this path.
The contact can be used to control several relays for the alternator field control or disconnect (if you have also starter batteries you can simply drop the line after the Battery combiner, the alternator will not go rogue, because the AGM starter battery remains connected b.t.w., you cal also divert the current to charge your generator starter battery instead)

Most people prefer to protect the alternator / regulator even further by using a battery-booster (this is a B2B charger, invented mainly to step up the voltage of the alternator to charge quickly the house AGM battery to 14.8V, AGM's like it to be charged to 100%, but this devices have also a GEL program and the newer one or more Lithium programs with lower voltages) They can be set by DIP-switches and - more important - remotely turned on and off by signals. The next benefit is, they deliver a FIXED maximum current controlled and limited by the step-up electronics, so your alternator will not be overwhelmed

This is my alternative view - and I think it is more practical in a real world environment either.

But make your own judgement, It's your money.

BTW: there is also an easy way to reduce voltage for any charger in 0.7V steps. Just add a diode in the path, that has the right current and voltage capabilities to cope with the charging output. So you can reduce the absorption voltage of a GEL charger from
14.6 to 13.9 and the float from 13.6 to 12.9V - way below the normal voltage of a LFP cell at 90% (3.34V or 13.36V), so in realty there is no float at all. It's as easy as that.
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Old 15-02-2018, 02:30   #150
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

Good grief. Enough to make you dizzy.
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