450: The New Lagoon 450

[monte]

I don't believe Lagoon have claimed its safer. Perhaps some dealers have included that as part of their advertising speel to attract the non flybridge lovers. The email above claiming the bulkhead helm is safe doesn't claim it's safer than the flybridge. My guess would be lagoon claim the sliding fibreglass section to the side of the helm is an added safety feature

[Polux]

Originally Posted by monte

So, what did the wife like? �� maybe you can do a run down of your thoughts on the other boats in a dedicated thread. The open 40s do look interesting, especially the 46. I'm not sure when that will be built/shown but I hear sales from the plans are good. I did price them recently with the similar specs to our current boat ( no genset, no air, upgraded engines, folding props, AIS, radar, aftermarket solar and WM etc ) and including discounts, not including VAT, came up with approx. L400 €310 O40 €325 O46€450. I'm not sure what the L450 would be, probably similar to the O46.

I will put a post(s) about new boats on my blog but regarding my wife for the first time she liked a multihull, I mean she loves the Dragonflies but when she goes inside she says no way. The one she liked was the Nautitech 40.

Of course, it is all a matter of opinion but neither she, neither I would consider something like the Lagoon 42 or the new FP that was there too, call it for aesthetic reasons if you like, she calls that type of boats huge, meaning very high on the water.

On the Nautitech that is not so apparent and that cut on the hull (smaller beam below) contributes to made it look less high. Also the wheel position seems much nicer to us and it really gives an excellent view forward, but again, a matter of opinion.

There are many other cats that I would have preferred to the Nautitech but there is the "small" problem regarding the money involved and with al honesty I doubt that for the money that cost one of those I would not prefer a fast bigger monohull.

Anyway the Naut. 40 costs without tax 279900 Euros and with a decent equipment more 40 000 euros. That plus 23% VAT (in Europe) it will mean a boat that will cost a bit less than 400000 euros. Not much for a cat but still a lot of money at least for my budget. I agree that regarding that price it is hard to find a monohull to match, especially in what regards the advantages to carry a dingy without being put over the boat.

But If I can dream then I will just add some more money and I will have a Solaris 50 or an Ice 52 that can take the dinghy inside a garage. Not really need more space than the one that the Nautitech 40 provides so no need of a 46. Note that my wife still likes more the space of the Nautitech that is really a very nicely designed one.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Polux

On the Nautitech that is not so apparent and that cut on the hull (smaller beam below) contributes to made it look less high. Also the wheel position seems much nicer to us and it really gives an excellent view forward, but again, a matter of opinion.

The Nautitech Open 40 is an appealing hull design. I really like the high bridge deck clearance and the sharp chines with an almost concave profile at waterline. It promises reasonable performance if weight is controlled.

The sides are huge; quite higher than our L400, which has been criticised for being "slab sided". The up side is volume inside the hulls, and that translates into increased liveability.

The Open 40 is incredibly light and airy; "must have" attributes for tropical cruising. The internal fit out is well designed and seems of good quality.
A down side of this design is that lines are not all run to the helm. Main halyard and reefing requires are trip forward to the mast. This boat is ideal for day racing; crew at the mast, exposed helms aft with a great view of the sails for the skipper and a calm marina at the end of the race. Not so good for single handing on a dark and stormy night.

The helm position, however is the biggest turnoff for me. I know the story; I've heard it many times from Catana owning friends; "Most of the time you're on autopilot...."
But.. What about the really crap weather when the autopilot struggles or can't cope? That's the time that you really need protection at the helm. Perhaps I'm crap at trusting my autopilot ( yes, it's a Ray!) but I find myself at the helm for hours on end when cruising in Great Barrier Reef and busy harbour waterways. I've come to like a helm that offers both good protection from the elements as well as a panoramic view of the water.
I agree with Polux; if you like to sail with your backside hanging over the transom, buy a mono.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by tuskie

The Nautitech Open 40 is an appealing hull design. I really like the high bridge deck clearance and the sharp chines with an almost concave profile at waterline. It promises reasonable performance if weight is controlled.

The sides are huge; quite higher than our L400, which has been criticised for being "slab sided". The up side is volume inside the hulls, and that translates into increased liveability.

The Open 40 is incredibly light and airy; "must have" attributes for tropical cruising. The internal fit out is well designed and seems of good quality.
A down side of this design is that lines are not all run to the helm. Main halyard and reefing requires are trip forward to the mast. This boat is ideal for day racing; crew at the mast, exposed helms aft with a great view of the sails for the skipper and a calm marina at the end of the race. Not so good for single handing on a dark and stormy night.

The helm position, however is the biggest turnoff for me. I know the story; I've heard it many times from Catana owning friends; "Most of the time you're on autopilot...."
But.. What about the really crap weather when the autopilot struggles or can't cope? That's the time that you really need protection at the helm. Perhaps I'm crap at trusting my autopilot ( yes, it's a Ray!) but I find myself at the helm for hours on end when cruising in Great Barrier Reef and busy harbour waterways. I've come to like a helm that offers both good protection from the elements as well as a panoramic view of the water.
I agree with Polux; if you like to sail with your backside hanging over the transom, buy a mono.

I did not have said that, I mean what is at bold. Many sportive cats have the helming positions on the side, over the hulls, a more exposed location but one where you have full view forward.

It seems to me that if you are helming in nasty conditions or in tricky navigation locals, forward vision is fundamental and that's why on more sportive cats, that are helmed for more time, the helming positions are many times over the hulls.

Regarding that the Nautitech allows for a more protected and comfortable position than boats like the Outremer but maintaining a good forward vision.

Regarding the lateral view of the boat to have more area than the one of a Lagoon 40, I have to look at that better and I have not time right now, but visually that is not the impression that one gets. I will look at that later and who knows, maybe I will be surprised I will post about that later.

I think that your assumption that the Nautitech is a performance cat pointed for racing (if that is what you mean) is not accurate. It is a main market cat (that is why Bavaria had bought it) just a bit sportier and lighter than the Lagoon ad FP but very far away from a true performance cat.

Unfortunately (regarding what I prefer) the cat main market seemed to have gone more toward condo cats. Older main market cats where on its spirit more close to the Nautitech than from modern FP and Lagoon (among others).

[Southern Star]

Monte, you are correct - the email referred to in post 16 says only that the helm is more conventional and safe. It does not suggest, nor did I suggest that the fly-bridge is unsafe, only that eliminating the flybridge does indeed make the boat safer.

Brad

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Polux

I did not have said that, I mean what is at bold. Many sportive cats have the helming positions on the side, over the hulls, a more exposed location but one where you have full view forward.

It seems to me that if you are helming in nasty conditions or in tricky navigation locals, forward vision is fundamental and that's why on more sportive cats, that are helmed for more time, the helming positions are many times over the hulls.

Regarding that the Nautitech allows for a more protected and comfortable position than boats like the Outremer but maintaining a good forward vision.

You said that for the cost of a Nautitech you would prefer to buy a mono such as an Ice 52, which has dual helms on a very open and exposed transom. Hence, my comment.

No, the Nautitechs are not racing boats, but people buy these boats and other "performance cruisers" for afternoon racing round the buoys. It keeps them happy.

Catamarans with helm stations on the extreme aft of each helm are exposed to sun and spray and DO NOT offer good forward vision. Not to the water at least. They do offer a good view of the sails; the main sail at least, because this may obscure the vision of the jib or genoa. Standing at cockpit height on the very aft of each hull means that more than half of the water horizon is obscured by cabin superstructure, etc. This is not a matter of opinion; simply standing at the helm and looking around is enough. Don't be fooled however, by the sales pitch of "you can see through the saloon windows". It might work at a boat show but at night the reflections make it impossible and during the day, curtains and other obstructions obscure the view. The vision must be unimpeded for it to be trusted.
Standing low at the transom helm of a racing mono seems to work as the deck is virtually flat and therefore does not obscure forward vision.

The subject of vision from boats is something I take seriously; COLREGs Rule 5 is strictly enforced where I live. This was demonstrated when a friend was involved in a marine incident resulting in multiple fatalities. He was at the helm of the "stand on" vessel heading west into a setting sun. The other vessel was a small fast speedboat that did not give way. The person in charge of that vessel did not survive to face charges. My friend suffered the full force of a marine police forensic investigation to prove he complied with all elements of Rules 5 and 17. He was not prosecuted, although this decision took almost 2 years.
If my friend had been on a aft helm catamaran instead the situation may have been much more difficult. "Being on auto", away from the helm which has obscured vision anyway ( but a great view of the sails!) and possibly being distracted would have made it much more difficult to prove a proper lookout was maintained and timely evasive action was taken. Think about it.
Sorry for the thread drift.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by tuskie

The Nautitech Open 40...
The sides are huge; quite higher than our L400, which has been criticised for being "slab sided". The up side is volume inside the hulls, and that translates into increased liveability.
....

By sides you mean the cabin? regarding the hulls it does not seem to me that the ones on the Nautitech are higher but most of all they give the illusion that they are considerably less high. That is due to the chine on the top and to the chines close to the water line (that make the hull less beamier).


The new Lagon 42 uses the same trick (chined upper hull) to diminish the apparent high of the hull. It works out but not as well as on the Nautitech that uses also a chine near the waterline.

[tuskie]

Polux wrote:
"By sides you mean the cabin? regarding the hulls it does not seem to me that the ones on the Nautitech are higher but most of all they give the illusion that they are considerably less high. That is due to the chine on the top and to the chines close to the water line (that make the hull less beamier)."

Not the cabin, just the sides. There is an Open 40 that I currently walk past on the way to my boat. I noticed the height by eye.
In response to your post, I tried to measure the heights from the top of the antifoul ( in both boats approx 100 above waterline) to top of hull side, in the Lagoon's case to the bottom of the toe rail, about mid- ship. Measurements are approximate as they were done with a tape measure and the O40's chines make this difficult. The Lagoon 400 measured 1650mm and the Open 40, 1790 mm.
Not a huge difference, but I suppose this is noticed more from the view of a floating marina walkway.
I agree with you that the Nautitech design cleverly hides this bulk; it is indeed a nice looking boat.

[arsenelupiga]

times have moved on. computer simulation, tunnel testing uncovered truths about dynamics of boats that many left behind.

i had reservation aboult tacking L 400 but in 1500 miles so far not a single failed attempt. That was not the case with my previous boat and i am lazy.

cat structure is part of sail. High not necessary bad. So far I experienced nothing to prove opposite.

And designers go for it. Even latest Outremer has structure like this, i observed.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

times have moved on. computer simulation, tunnel testing uncovered truths about dynamics of boats that many left behind.

i had reservation aboult tacking L 400 but in 1500 miles so far not a single failed attempt. That was not the case with my previous boat and i am lazy.

cat structure is part of sail. High not necessary bad. So far I experienced nothing to prove opposite.

And designers go for it. Even latest Outremer has structure like this, i observed.

Tuskie, it seems you are right. It is really amazing how the eyes can be deceived by some tricks.
......
Arsen,
The lateral high on the side of the boat is as bad on a monohull or multihull: It increases windage making for a lot of leeway. The fact many brands go for that feature as to do with interior space and functionality that comes as an accepted cost in sailing performance.

On racing monohulls they try to keep that windage (and the lateral profile of the boat) to a minimum and when needed they use curved surfaces to better the hydrodynamics and diminish windage.

Even on some performance cats you can see that they try to do the same, to a point...past that the interior space and comfort is not acceptable anymore.

Here a 40ft performance cruising cat:

a more racing oriented Young 57:

and here you have a pure ocean racing cat, Orange 2:

As you can see the faster, the less lateral windage, regarding the size of the boat. It is all a question of trade offs: More interior space or less windage and better interior sailing ability.

High is necessarily bad for windage in most sailing positions, but can be compensated on the trade-of interior space, it all depends of the trade offs one is willing to accept.

There is one sailing position where high most of the times is not bad, providing the boat is aerodynamic in what regards wind penetration and that's downwind. However it can have nasty effects on a storm while running: all that back windage will make very difficult to slow down the boat in extreme conditions.

The new Lagoons seem to me have been better worked in what regards that, I mean without compromising the interior space they have made what they could to diminish windage, with all those rounded surfaces. The only thing they did not touch was that frontal"window" surface. Maybe on a next model we will see one with an aerodynamic entry. I bet that it will end up to happen, sooner or later.

[eugene presley]

Anybody knows why the Lagoon 450 (S) does not have these diamond-shaped vertical bows, bevelled hulls like as on the new 42 (and like on the 52S).

Or is it just a matter of time a 450-model with that same 'hull DNA' will see the light?

I really like those new diamond shaped hulls, that's why I'm asking...

[Polux]

I bet it is just a question of time. This is a better bow design, not only maximizing LWL but increasing buoyancy on the upper part of the bow that can be useful in critical situations.

[monte]

The L39,42 and 52 are the new designs. The main difference is the bows, coachroof/windows and aft stepped mast with a supporting pole in the saloon. The 450S is the older 450 without the flybridge, so not a total redesign. It's possible the 450s will follow the new design in a few years to give a full size range of 39,42,45,52. It's also possible that due to excellent sales they will keep the L450 as is and continue to offer it as they do the 17 year old L380 and perhaps bring in an L46 in the new design to see if it outsells the L450 as they did with the L39/380

[PaulinOz]

I have dollar on the next new design being in the around 48 feet. that would sit nicely in the progression L39, L42, L450, L48, L52.
L450S re-design would only make sense if they where not planing on it being around for at leasta few years yet.
As Monte say's with the L450 heading North of 500 units already, it is on it's way to rival the L380, but then I am also a touch biased.

[TOT]

Does anyone have any idea how many 450's have been produced to date?


SV TOT
Wayne 😃