440: Lagoon 440 Performance ?

[dinocuri]

I own a Lagoon 440. Its not a slow boat. Average speed when I am cruising is 10knots. In a a 25 knot wind 12 knots is not a problem. Quickest I have had her was 15knots off St Peter Port in 30 knots of wind. She is desperate for new antifouling now which does slow her up !!

The raised helm position is fantastic. Its actually the best place to be when in rough seas.

[Kaptain Ken]

dinocuri,

If you haven't had your bottom paint done yet, take a look at a product called "Coppercoat". It costs more, but it lasts as much as ten years. My partner in our 440 has used it on a previous boat (an Island Packet) and it lasted at least that long. We will be having it put on our boat in late summer.

Concerning the speed of a 440, we have been more than pleased with our boat's performance, regularly reaching 9 or 10 knots on a beam reach with less than 20 knots wind and 13 knots downwind with our spinnaker up and an apparent wind under 10 knots.

The best part, however, is the sheer comfort of cruising on our 440, as opposed to our previous boat, a Hunter 450. It's a pleasure to sail. I concur about the flybridge steering station. The view and sail handling set-up is incredible. It's no wonder over 400 have been sold in less than five years.

Regarding a previous comment regarding steerage, has anyone heard of the new invention called an "Autopilot"? We rarely have ours on "Standby", except when motoring in tight quarters.

[mudbug]

Hi y'all!

Buddy from Lagoon 380 Indigo Moon here.

Gee, I was a bit puzzled by the "slow boat" comment on the 440.

Gee whiz, how fast should they go?!

I have buddy boated on my 380, LOADED down to the max, for over 15,000 miles in all sorts of conditions from rough open ocean sailing to motoring in flat calms and my 380 has had no trouble keeping up with Lagoon 410's, Manta 42's, and other slightly longer cats.

But. . . . the 440 does double digits in routine, normal conditions (my 380 did 14 surfing in seas once ). A 440 walks quickly away from the 38 to 40 foot pack without breaking a sweat.

Anyway, I am always a bit puzzled at the "speed" issue that gets so much attention. From what I can see, the 440 is perfectly fast for what it is: a wide-hulled load-carrying-capable-cruiser that is a palace in terms of comfort and liveability.

It's not a racing catamaran, but displays very good performance for what it is designed for: stability, extreme comfort, and load carrying capability.

Basically, 440's are really cool and perform beautifully.

Also, I am scratching my head about some comments on various threads about the weight of boats and "production boats" and being too heavy and slow . . .

I got news for you: a very fast, narrow hull design that is comparatively light will not offer any real advantage for CRUISING. Of course, if you want to be the first to arrive in the next anchorage and such "bragging rights" are what you are looking for more than comfort and storage space, then that's fine too. To each his own.

The biggest shock to some will be how little these sailing speed comparisons offer any utility once you are out cruising. It just does not work out to be an issue for the fleet. We all just kinda leap frog and cruise along.

Let's face it, if speed is that big a deal for you, then buy a SEA RAY!

All kidding aside, from both personally sailing a 440 a couple of times, and buddy boating with one for several months in 2005, I can say without reservation that they are very solid, fast performers and very cool boats!

All the best,

Buddy

[SailFastTri]

Top speed is way over-rated for cruising boats. What's much more important is light-air performance, especially if you're in the middle latitudes and can't count on trade winds. Pointing ability is important, if your destination isn't downwind or a reach. For that reason (referring back to the original post) the Catana (with dagger-boards) will be a much better choice if you prefer to sail.

Light air performance and pointing ability is often the difference between motoring and sailing. Don't forget that cruising chute too.

[Kaptain Ken]

SailFast Tri,

Sailing in light air is also a function of having the right sails on board. In addition to the standard genoa, we have equipped our 440 with a moderate sized gennaker (roughly eqivalent to a 130-150 genoa), a larger gennaker (about the size of a 170-180 genoa) and a large asymetrical cruising spinnaker with a sleeve. We have the spinnaker rigged so that the tack can be positioned anywhere between the two hulls, which gives it a very large spectrum of effectiveness.

Smooth sailing & Have a Blessed Day!!!

[lagoon100]

Hi

Is there a lagoon 440 owner site somewhere?

Whit more then 400 build it would be great to have one to exchange details.

best regards

[mudbug]

Here is where all of us Lagoon owners hang out:

lagooncatowners : Lagoon Catamaran Owners Group

We talk about and exchange info on all the Lagoons. Check it out.

All the best,

Buddy

[MarkJ]

Didn't a Lagoon 440 win the ARC a year or so ago?

One drifted through the anchorage a few weeks ago on a delivery to South Africa so we invited ourselves on board for a look-see.

I actually don't mind the helm position on top. There is also another (optional?) helm station below in the saloon.

The fly bridge thing means you can see all 4 corners of the boat - thats nice when docking etc. Loved the long helm seats; loved the long bench seat just aft the trampoline.

If my brains fell out and I decided to buy a cat I would certainly look very closely at one.


Mark

[gbanker]

i was on a lagoon 440 the other day and was surprised at the height of the boom. at 6' 2" (my height) the boom was at the level of my neck and i could just reach the top of the stack pack. i could envision a time when the sail did not come down neatly into the stack pack and manual intervention would be needed and it would be a hard task(IMHO).

[Atlantic42]

Originally Posted by dinocuri

I own a Lagoon 440. Its not a slow boat. Average speed when I am cruising is 10knots.

Hitting 10-12 knots in ideal conditions on a day sail is one thing and I find this believable for the 440. But, when the term "cruising" is used it implies sustained passage making. Under passage making conditions (i.e. sailing 24 hours a day for numerous days) this claim of 10 knots is not as believable. 240nm days AVERAGE in a heavy under canvased boat like the 440... unlikely.

Perhaps I'm all wet and dinocuri is a very intense sailor who likes to take risks drive the boat hard and choose to sail in higher wind ranges. But, I must point out this is not AVERAGE behavior for a cruising sailor making passages. Cruising people who are in it for the long term like to have pleasant and safe passages and thus choose weather very carefully and don't set hard schedules. It is not a race it's about taking care of the boat so she takes care of you. I share this perspective as sometimes claims of speed can get a little outrageous and for those lacking significant cruising experience there needs to be a balance of perspectives.

I own a very fast cat (Chris White Atlantic 42) and I plan 8 knots for a passage making and yes, I go faster sometimes. But, if you asked me I'd say 8 knots average for passages is a good planning speed. And sure I can go out and light it up for a day sail and sail mid teens plus, but this is not AVERAGE cruising. I believe 7-9 knots AVERAGE would be more realistic and perhaps even a tad optimistic for the 440 in cruising mode.

[mudbug]

Originally Posted by Atlantic42

I believe 7-9 knots AVERAGE would be more realistic and perhaps even a tad optimistic for the 440 in cruising mode.

That sounds pretty good to me. We are at about 17,000 miles now, and the more we sail/motor/motorsail/paddle/push our "little" 380 while cruising, the more we average somewhere between 6.8 to 7.0 as a complete, overall average.

We have had "good" days with 48 hours at over eight knots and never touched the sheets or the autopilot, and "bad" days when we clawed into seas and currents at less than four knots for over 24 hours.

It seems to me that the 440 is so much faster than us that they would average at least 8 and closer to 9 over several years and thousands of miles. When I said I could not keep up with one, I'm not kidding. That 440 would smoke me without a second thought. A Manta 42 or Lagoon 410 can't easily shake me and sometimes they even get an "all day" good look at my transoms if I pull the hook and get a mile jump on them!

Anyway, as we all know, there are many angles from which to look at things. Another ratio that's interesting is how many days per year you'll spend on ocean crossings and open water work, as opposed to being on the hook and just living.

I don't know of anybody who cruises by sailing long passages for months and months on end each year. Sure, a boat needs to be rated and designed for offshore use, and have a reasonable seaworthiness to hopefully withstand whatever kicks up weatherwise on some of the two and three week legs that must be made to circumnavigate, etc.

BUT, in normal cruising routines, those days and even weeks of passages are significantly, spectacularly outnumbered by the months and cumulative time of years of living on the hook and in safe harbors along the way.

I would really love to see some real stats on the number of days that people are underway truly offshore versus anchored/moored and how many underway days are on longer than 72 hour passages (where weather really becomes a wild card).

I would bet that the numbers would be VERY illuminating as to the small percentage of passagemaking time, even for long legged circumnavigators. Much more time is spent living on the boat as a platform in calm harbors, etc.

Focusing on the 440 from that perspective, it's a fabulous choice and certainly performs more than well enough under sail, all while getting you to the next location, be it across a bay or an ocean.

All the best,

Buddy

[Atlantic42]

Originally Posted by mudbug

I would really love to see some real stats on the number of days that people are underway truly offshore versus anchored/moored and how many underway days are on longer than 72 hour passages (where weather really becomes a wild card).

Here is a scenario for a South Pacific crossing that is played out many times a year. These numbers are not from my log book because that would be too much of a pain, but represent a similar voyage I did made in the South Pacific in 2006/2007.

Depart: Panama April 1
Arrive: Sydney, AU November 1
Time in transit: ~ 7 months or ~210 days
Rough Route: Galapagos, Marquesas, Societies, Cooks, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, New Zealand, Sydney, AU.
Basic great circle mileage: ~12,000 nautical miles actual miles sailed will be more.

Days underway and percent of total transit time underway.
5.7 knots average = ~88 days or ~41%
7 knots average = ~71 days or ~34%
8 knot average = ~62 days or ~30%
9 knot average = ~55 days or ~26%

When I followed a similar route across the South Pacific on my 40' ULD mono I average about 5.7 knots underway. Note: My 5.7 average was considerably faster than most monos in the fleet.

The number of passages greater than 72 hours depends on your route, weather and most of all boat speed. It might be as many as 8 legs the you will be out over 72 hours. Galapagos to Marquesas is about 3000 nautical miles or 14-22 days based on the speed ranges above.


As for the likely cruising speed of the 440. If one were to crudely extrapolate the long term average speed of 7 knots sailed on a 38 footer to determine the likely speed of a 44 footer then: 7 knots divided by 38 feet = a factor of 0.18. Factor of 0.18 times 44 feet = 7.92 knots which seems a lot closer to reality. If the 38 footer and 44 footer left at the same time in about 3-4 hours the 44 footer would have given the 38 footer what I call a horizon job as that one knot is a big deal and the 44 would be literally out of sight.

[mudbug]

Very interesting indeed. Thanks for that input.

So, basically, even in the Pacific where the longest passages by far are required, even in a very slow boat and trying to make the whole hop from Central America to Australia (and assuming a fast-track one season cruise), still . . . less than half the time is spent sailing in seven months. Amazing.

Add in the rest of the year, hanging out in Australia and the ratio drops much more still. So, the annual rate is far less than fifty percent, right?

I can assure you that in the Caribbean, the ratio of hook time to sailing is extremely "hook heavy" in comparison to the Pacific (obviously).

Of course, all this begs the question: do you buy a vessel most suited for the type of use it spends the majority of its time encountering? If so . . .
Isn't it also ironic that some folks buy spacious, heavy and slow boats for weekend duty to entertain guests and spend a lot of time weekend sailing on the bay, but then when it's time to go cruising they decide they need a fast cruising boat with less accomdations when in fact they will sail less and live on the boat more at rest.

Of course, there is no wrong answer, except buying a boat that is simply not seaworthy for the task. We should all buy what we like and what suits our fancy, but sometimes I think it all comes down to a matter of taste more than folks would think at first blush.

I know one thing for sure . . . you better love the boat you buy because chances are there will be times that it does not love you back!

By the way, I like those Atlantic 42's . . . very cool design, but I only get to see them at the dock . . . I can't ever get close to one offshore; they are going too fast.

Sail on! Or, set the hook and relax awhile!

Buddy

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Atlantic42

As for the likely cruising speed of the 440. If one were to crudely extrapolate the long term average speed of 7 knots sailed on a 38 footer to determine the likely speed of a 44 footer then: 7 knots divided by 38 feet = a factor of 0.18. Factor of 0.18 times 44 feet = 7.92 knots which seems a lot closer to reality. If the 38 footer and 44 footer left at the same time in about 3-4 hours the 44 footer would have given the 38 footer what I call a horizon job as that one knot is a big deal and the 44 would be literally out of sight.

Hull speed doesn't go up as linear function of LWL, much less LOA.

In fact, the Lagoon 440 has LWL of 41.833 feeet and the 380 36.083 feet. The square root of the 440's LWL is about 7% more than that of the 380, compared to almost 14% difference between the simple LWL numbers. So if it's dependent on hull speed, the 440's potential is only half a knot more than the 7 knots of the 380, not a whole knot.

IF it's determinted by hull speed -- I'm not quite sure how cats work. But if you guys cheat hull speed, then the difference should be even less, right?

[mudbug]

Hey,

I don't know anything about the numbers scenario of waterline and cat speed being reliable, because for one thing it seems to me that beam has more than just a little to do with it, as does hull design/shape and sail area, and how it's rigged and loaded.

All I can say is, really, I'd be honestly SHOCKED if a 440 averaged only 8 knots or less in the long haul. It just does not match with what I saw with my own eyes while buddy boating with one for several months and a thousand miles in all conditions.

In truth, the mechanism has yet to be invented that could possibly measure my indifference to "sabre rattling" about how fast a 440 actually "is or is not" . . . and please don't think I am being snotty. I don't mean that in a nasty way. I just KNOW they are not slow.

I know for a fact that they do a fabulous job for what they were designed to do and are not a dog. They are plenty fast considering the opulant quarters they bring along. It's the old "don't try and describe a KISS concert if you've never seen one."

I'll say this, there were two things that stood firmly between me and a 440: 1) I simply could not afford the boat AND go cruising full time; and 2) the 440 was not even born yet when I bought my little 380 (which we dearly love).

If I had the dough and were buying today, you can bet the 440 would be on an extremely short list! It has a few drawbacks, like the high boom for example, but the pluses of the overall design are many and some are "home runs" that are awesome and just can't be found on any other cat.

But that's just my opinion and my taste.

Of course, that does not mean other cats are not just as fun/good/smart/cool/fast/ or whatever.

Some folks hate the look of the Lagoons because of the vertical windows. One guy said my boat looked like it was the offspring of an illegitimate affair between a tugboat and a catamaran, and that's surely ok too.

It's a good thing we don't ALL want the same boat, right?!

Peace, love and diversity,

Buddy