440: Lagoon 440 Weight, Height, Flybridge

[Etienne]

Hello all,

I am really interested in the Lagoon 440.

I have been looking at all the competitors, and none seem to have the finish, quality and layout for my needs as the Lagoon 440. I have been following the informative comments here about Lagoon in general. (And yes, I LIKE those upright windows! )
I just can't get sold on Privilege, or any of the others. (So please don't recommend others.)

My question (which I have posted to Lagoon, waiting for an answer), is why, oh, why is the Lagoon so much heavier than other boats in the category? What makes it so heavy? (I know this has been touched on a little in the 420-thread.) What does this mean for the safety of the cat? Does this also make it considerably slower?

I have also noticed NOBODY seem to like the flybridge concept. Is this true? Is it really such a bad idea from a weather point of view? SURELY, Lagoon did market research on this feature?? Comments, please?

Finally, I have noticed that this flybridge makes everything 'higher'. The boom etc. Surely this makes the overall centre of gravity higher, and hence, less safe? Any comments?

Thank you so much for any kind input / comments and discussions.

[sailvi767]

I don't think the Lagoon 44 is really that heavy. Keep in mind that Lagoons for the most part have very steep suger scoops. This means that a 44 foot Lagoon is really more like a 46 foot cat in other designs. The same would apply to the 420. I don't like the steep scoops because I am a diver and like easy water access however each person is different in their needs. You also need to look at how the weight is calculated. There are different methods. I agree the 420 is heavy, it is actually heavier then the 440 using the same methods to determine weight and has less sail area. The 440 however I think is within the normal range.
On the subject of the flybridge I don't like it for a long range cruising boat. It is however great for a coastal boat or charter boat.
George

[Jeannius]

I have also noticed NOBODY seem to like the flybridge concept. Is this true? Is it really such a bad idea from a weather point of view? SURELY, Lagoon did market research on this feature?? Comments, please?

Finally, I have noticed that this flybridge makes everything 'higher'. The boom etc. Surely this makes the overall centre of gravity higher, and hence, less safe? Any comments?

Terrible idea from the weather point of view. Yes you are also right about the higher centre of graivity being a bad idea. The one thing you really want to avoid on a cat is weight up high.

People have crossed oceans safely in Lagoon 440's. Personally I wouldn't leave the dockside in one.

[Tnflakbait]

I think the lagoon 440 is not heavy for a boat, but it is for a sailing catamaran. I think the flybridge is really cool and could be fun. But on a serious cruising catamaran it is a little silly in my opinion. It does add windage and weight aloft. The goon is pretty heavy (for a catamaran) so the windage is not much worry.

True the higher boom puts more sail power high and less low.

I think this boat looks really comfortable and nice to have a lot of people on board. I'm sure that it would be safe offshore. However it isn't fast. Just my thoughts.

[maxingout]

Windage is a significant issue on a catamaran especially at anchor. There are lots of deep anchorages around the world, and a boat with this much windage is going to require a very large anchor and lots of chain to keep the yacht in one place. I started out in the Pacific with a 45 lb CQR and then went to a 60 lb CQR, and still I dragged anchor at times. I finally went to a 70 lb buegel anchor for the last half of our circumnavigation, and the anchor no longer dragged. My problem was always windage and sailing around at anchor.

If you plan to do a circumnavigation, I would select a catamaran with less windage. If you are going to use your yacht for local sailing where anchorages are good, then it may not matter that much.

Sometimes boats with a lot of windage need to use a stern anchor to limit the motion in tight anchorages. I have used a stern anchor only three times in eleven years, and part of the reason is because my cat is smaller and has less windage.

Cheers,
Dave

Maxingout.com
PositiveGraphics.com

[Adaero]

Etienne
I must admit to being in a very similar position to you having looked at the 440 with the wife and both falling in love with the quality of finish and general layout of the boat but with a few minor reservations.
I am no expert with not a massive amount of sailing experience but have set my heart on a 40ft+ cat within the next 18 months for initially coastal sailing until we are confident enough to go and explore the rest of the world.
I have though over the last 2 years read nearly everthing ever printed about cats, talked to lots of salesmen and listened to lots of very strong opinions on forums such as this, YBW and sailing anarchy.
Taking all this information on board I believe nearly all the cats on the market can be divided in to roughly 3 specs (yes you can all shoot me down in flames in a minute).
1. In European car terms the BMW M series, Mercedes AMG type top end of the market flying machines. These boats are just 1 step down from full racing cats with nearly always a price tag to match. I am talking about Gunboat, Catana, the new Alibi (yet to be built) to name a few. These boats normally have very slim hulls, carbon masts and full racing rigs. Although they have all the bells and whistles that most people require these days they don't have the interior capacity our wives require or the load carrying capacity that their wardrobes and cosmetics demand. Speed means being light and enjoying the thrill of travelling at speed rather than having 10 cubic metres of hanging rail space.
2. The rep mobile (travelling salesmans car), will do 100,000 miles a year at a steady 80 MPH, will never break down but will never win a drag race, a cruising machine. In this section I include what most people seem to class as charter cats, Lagoon, FP, Leopard + a few others. The same bells and whistles as above, sometimes even more because weight isn't a problem, thats only a worry for the speed machines. Wider hulls (to carry the extra weight) but good seaworthy boats many 1000's of ocean miles clocked up over the years. Massive internal space and storage.
3. The budget range. Nothing specifically too wrong with either build or design but not quite the finish of 1 and 2 above. I won't name any boats here as this is just a personal rant and I don't want to upset any owners out there. As mentioned before Bumfuzzle went round the world, ok a few problems but not as bad as a lot of people thought it might have been. Mid range speed together with mid range performance. You always get what you pay for in this world.

In conclusion I believe my cat will be in class 2. Class 1 is too expensive, although personally would love one. Even if I did have the money to afford a class 1 boat the other half wouldn't like at as it wouldn't be a home from home that the majority of women require. Class 3 is a non starter as we are talking about our life depending upon this piece of floating plastic and if it meant taking risks for not a lot of difference in money I just couldn't cut corners and hope nothing went wrong.

To come clean my shortlist at the moment is the 440 Lagoon and the new FP Salina 48 ( I reserve judgement until I see one).

[Etienne]

THANK YOU very much all...

Adaero, I agree with you a 100%. What is also astonishing is that I came to exactly the same conclusion about two final contenders: also the Salina 48.
I chose the slightly bigger FP as I thought price-wise it may work out about the same - however - I was put off a little by some of the comments made here after a thread specific about the FP Salina and FP in general. Some here reckon it may be significantly more in price than a 440.

I would also love the Gunboat (being a proud South African ), but the price is just insane and in my book over-engineerd and over-specified for a cruiser.

There seem to be among some here very valid and serious safety concerns about the LAgoon - it doesn't seem to show in the stats - do you reckon it is because most Lagoon owners stay way out of trouble? Surely you also want your Lagoon to be a versatile coastal as well as oceanic cruiser?

Thanks for the comments and feedback!!

[cat man do]

I'm sure Catana can be sourced without the carbon rig.

Dave

[Etienne]

Adaero, (and others)

What are your thoughts on the Privilege 435 - why is it off your list?

(Mike I already know your thoughts! )

[Tnflakbait]

Originally Posted by Etienne

do you reckon it is because most Lagoon owners stay way out of trouble?

It's always a good idea to stay way out of trouble!

Any boat can me modified. You could lower the main boom and get a new main. You would have to duck when the boom comes over (when sitting on the flybridge). There are lots of other things you can do to make a boat better. You could add 4 feet to the bows and 4 feet to the sterns and I'm sure it would sail much better. However with regards to hard biminis in general; I worry that In a Hurricane with 120 kts wind gusts (at anchor hopefully) It could act as a powerfull sail.

[BambooSailor]

Originally Posted by Etienne

There seem to be among some here very valid and serious safety concerns about the LAgoon - it doesn't seem to show in the stats - do you reckon it is because most Lagoon owners stay way out of trouble? Surely you also want your Lagoon to be a versatile coastal as well as oceanic cruiser.

Etienne,
Can you tell more about Lagoon's serious safety concerns? I'd like to research it a bit further, but I am not sure what you are referring to.

[Etienne]

Thanks for the input.

Bamboosailor: I quote Mike: "Personally I wouldn't leave the dockside in one." Maybe he can also help out here.

The main issue seem to be that conventional wisdom says that catamarans are safe only if the weight is kept low. In the case of the Lagoon, this handicap is combined with the fact that the hard bimini, helmstation, higher boom, etc adds weight aloft, higher than other comparible cats, hence may be more unsafe in a marginal situation. I guess this is what Mike is referring to. I have written to Lagoon for comment with no response as yet.

To modify the boom and rig seem like a good idea - they made it so that a fully grown man standing upright at the helm station won't get knocked over.

I still really like the Lagoon. I guess love is blind. (sigh).

[Adaero]

Etienne
I not sure about your safety concerns on the 440, I have probably read all the same threads as yourself about how the boom is too high etc, but I don't think it can be a major safety concern unless you are trying to push the boat up to maximum hull speed in high winds. Out the 20 ARC cats last year 8 were Lagoons and I have never heard of any Lagoon capsized or pitchpoled in recent years. I think they are built as cruisers and therefore used as such by their owners. As long as they have enough speed to try and out run approaching bad weather and you don't try to race everyone in sight my opinion is that they are quite safe.

Dave
I am sure also the Catana can be purchased without a carbon rig but for my simple exercise Catana fit better in the speed machine bracket rather than the charter cat one.

Etienne
My personal opinion on the Privilege 435 is that the design looks slightly dated compared with some of the new boats coming on the market (I do actually like vertical windows?). I would put Privilege somewhere in between my class 1 and 2 brackets, a good turn of speed but not quite the full blown flying machine. The Broadblue is another I class along side the Privilege. I spoke with the MD at Southampton last year, nice guy with a huge amount of cat building knowledge (ex-Prout) but the wife didn't like the interior, (saw the Lagoon moments before) what can you say?

As far as FP goes I also have build quality concerns, sales guys not too responsive plus a few other niggling things in the back of my mind. I will have to wait and see.

[Etienne]

Adaero,

You've made my day.

I am acting a bit like a devil's advocate to reduce my pre-purchase cognitive dissonance!!

Would you consider the modification to lower the boom, or do you think that is not needed?

Thanks for your input.
I wish Mike could weigh in here - I know he is very knowledgeable on cats.

[Adaero]

Etienne

I personally wouldn't go changing the design of the boat too much as the designers at the factory probably know a lot more than you or I put together. Just imagine the scenario if you lower the boom, happily sat at the helm with your friends, one of them stands to wave at someone just as the boom comes across and smacks them in the ear, not very pleasant. If you are that concerned the weight high up it could be reduced by fitting a carbon rig and lightweight sails but it all comes at a cost.
I have come to the decision that whatever boat I buy it will be a compromise in some way. The only area I will not compromise on is safety. 6 months ago I took the time to write out the spec of the boat we both wanted this included sailing performance, ease of sail handling were among some of my requirements to rediculous things such colour and type of interior fabrics, how many burner rings, configuration and size of the bed were the type of things that were important to her indoors. The list became extremely long and comprehensive. I can confirm though that there is not a cat on the market that meets all of our criteria unless you want a bespoke one with a $2mil price tag. You also have to remember that the manufacturers are trying to build a boat that will be attractive to all of the many different markets, Charter companies, the fat cat who wants a toy for 3 or 4 weeks a year, the guy who sells up everything to fulfil his dream and sail around the world to people like me who want to alternate between spending 1,2 or 3 months on board visiting places before going back to 1 or 2 months at work. It's all a compromise.

Why do my posts end up like War and Peace?
Try writing a spec out, it may help you.