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cheoah · 17-05-2013, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

estarzinger,

I mean no disrespect but:

Some folks here have held you out to be the Jesus Christ of cruising. That may be so and you may have more experience, more miles, and more awards than anyone on this forum.

That's all fine and good, but you are pissing into the wind if you think your request or insistence that other boaters behave according to your wishes and expectations will be met. You have no authority to demand compliance and even if you did, it's unlikely that people would comply. You can come up with a hundred reasons why they should comply but it won't make a bit of difference. You can call them bad boaters or worse, it won't make a bit of difference.

People may have their personal reasons for behaving as they do or they may just not be thinking about it. In addition, I would be surprised if the membership of this forum was even 1% of the total number of boaters on the water so your message is not getting out.

It seems to me that at this point, you are just arguing with people for no good reason. Your demands to "show me why ...... " mean nothing. Nobody is obligated to show you anything.

It's just like boaters making wakes, playing loud music, running portable generators in an anchorage at night, etc. You (and I) don't like it but there's nothing we can do to stop it.

For your health and blood pressure - just drop it. Learn to live with it, it's not going to change.

Unhelpful post. This forum is all about debate and dialogue. If you don't want to continue with the debate just check out. He hasn't portrayed himself as Jesus Christ, it isn't reasonable for you to hold him accountable for your sensitivity to perceived authority. Fine for you to disagree with him, but to me it sounds like you have a problem with him being a well known cruiser more than he has a problem thinking he is a well known cruiser. This is not meant as an attack, but after participating in this thread, and seeing both sides, I think you are way more caught up in the interaction than the issues. FWIW. Takes two for a pissing match and your fly is down at the keyboard.

It's a good thread and lots more are reading than posting likely. AIS is newish technology for pleasure craft and it would be a shame to stop the conversation because he is passionate about his position, right or wrong. I for one like that we have both world voyagers and weekend warriors and everything in between here to hash it out

Keep posting everybody, debate is good stuff.

**s/v Jedi** · 17-05-2013, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

I request that they be locked in a box with their on/off switch triggered by decay of a few atoms of U238. That way they would be both on and off simultaneously

.

Mark

I think we should integrate the AIS with the AP so that it steers around them pesky boats automatically!

colemj · 17-05-2013, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

My understanding of the discussion is that some of you are taking the 'libertarian position' - eg I should not be suggesting how you should run your vessel. I reject pure libertarian positions when they harm a public commons. I think the community does in fact have some right to at least ask you to think about your impact on the commons. That is what I have done. I of course am not (and could not) demanding or requiring you change, just asking that you think about it. I think this is JUST LIKE talking on 16 or throwing plastic in the water, except its not illegal yet. As a note: I have actually talked to the USCG liaison officer about this topic and they agree with me from a vessel safety perspective but from a homeland security/tracking perspective they are not sure they may prefer to be able to see all boats all the time. . . . Well I care about vessel safety and don't much care about helping homeland security track things.

The only two reasons people have suggested they should leave they AIS on when docked are: (1) because its too much bother to turn off, or (2) they might then forget to turn it back on when they leave. Both of those seem to me to be really extremely weak excuses. Excuse me for being blunt again, but put a damn post it note near your wheel if you can't remember.

Anyway, some of you will be delighted to hear this is my last post on this.

Once again, I am not taking a libertarian position or arguing there are lots of valid reasons to leave it on. Am am arguing the point about the commons. I have a different opinion from you and do not see it equivalent to throwing plastic in the ocean or tying up emergency channels. I view that position as extreme.

I have never felt a vessel safety issue from too many boats on my AIS. So how can I agree with you that it is a vessel safety issue simply on the fact that you are uncomfortable with these data?

I find not learning how filtering can and should be used in various situations as weak of an excuse as you find those not remembering to turn it on. Since I find both to be weak excuses, I don't really know where I belong in this debate anymore...

I am not happy to hear that you are fed up with this debate and are leaving it. For the most part, CF is a polite (if contentious) place. Please don't visit sailing anarchy with a contrary opinion!

Mark

rwidman · 17-05-2013, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

I admit that I wrote that without hard facts. I was under the impression that Hong Kong, Singapore and a few other countries mandated AIS on all vessels - commercial and recreational. However, I made my statement without fact checking and withdraw it now.

Mark

edit: Singapore does require AIS on all vessels: New - AIS Requirement for Yachts Entering Singapore — Noonsite

Even uncle Bubba's duck boat? How about a dinghy with no electrical system? I see the word "yachts", but exactly what are the requirements?

rwidman · 17-05-2013, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheoah

Unhelpful post. This forum is all about debate and dialogue. If you don't want to continue with the debate just check out. He hasn't portrayed himself as Jesus Christ, it isn't reasonable for you to hold him accountable for your sensitivity to perceived authority. Fine for you to disagree with him, but to me it sounds like you have a problem with him being a well known cruiser more than he has a problem thinking he is a well known cruiser. This is not meant as an attack, but after participating in this thread, and seeing both sides, I think you are way more caught up in the interaction than the issues. FWIW. Takes two for a pissing match and your fly is down at the keyboard.

It's a good thread and lots more are reading than posting likely. AIS is newish technology for pleasure craft and it would be a shame to stop the conversation because he is passionate about his position, right or wrong. I for one like that we have both world voyagers and weekend warriors and everything in between here to hash it out

Keep posting everybody, debate is good stuff.

Thanks, that added a lot to the discussion.

I think the debating is over, it's just name calling now.

Kettlewell · 17-05-2013, 14:49

Here's a question for any professional mariners on here: what would a commercial ship do when passing by Newport and seeing Class B's all over the place and not moving? I imagine they might filter them out, if they can. Did we ever resolve the question of whether or not commercial ships sometimes filter out all Class B targets, or is it even possible? Seems like all these Class Bs crying wolf might eventually get ignored.

Jammer Six · 17-05-2013, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

My understanding of the discussion is that some of you are taking the 'libertarian position' - eg I should not be suggesting how you should run your vessel.

Then you do not understand what has been said.

LeaseOnLife · 17-05-2013, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

Even uncle Bubba's duck boat? How about a dinghy with no electrical system? I see the word "yachts", but exactly what are the requirements?

MPA - Application for a new licence or re-licensing

Installation of Transponder-
- All mechanically propelled pleasure craft are required to be installed with a transponder. Owner may choose between Automated Identification System (AIS) or Harbour Craft Transponder System (HARTS)

Duck boat with engine: Yes, transponder required
Kayak: No

rwidman · 17-05-2013, 14:52

Just for grins, the USCG ship docked in Charleston, SC leaves its AIS transmitter on 24/7

Perhaps it's best to start with them and work down to the pleasure boats.

CG ANVIL

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Flag: USA

Ship Type: Military Ops
Status: Anchored/Moored
Speed/Course: 0 kn / 0˚
Length x Breadth: 47 m X 7 m
Draught: 2 m
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Liam Wald · 17-05-2013, 14:59

Mark makes a point and in doing so used the term "sailing anarchy".

That gave me cause for thought and I really think that the anarchist attitude is an important part of this discussion. At least as far as I am concerned.

In my four decades of being a sailor and meeting other sailors I have come to recognize that as a group sailors seem to be a fiercely independent and individualistic bunch of folks. They don't seem to like being told where to go, what to think or what to do. They tend to question authority and thumb their noses at self proclaimed experts. They have sensitive ******** barometers and a low tolerance for anything that is perceived as being unreasonable, selfish, intolerant, or demanding.

I personally have a strong aversion to anyone who feels they occupy an exalted position, for whatever reason, and believes that they or their opinion is somehow superior to that of someone else. Be it morally, philosophically, or intellectually.

Our society seems to extend special privilege to most anyone with a claim, be it ever so modest, to notoriety. We let them climb up upon their little boxes and we look up to them as they spout.
Sometime we learn, sometimes we are disappointed, sometimes we are offended, and sometimes we simply turn away from them effectively kicking the box out from under their feet.

I honestly have no issues with opinions that differ from my own. Everyone is entitled to have his or her own opinion and to express it as they see fit. Spirited debate and constructive argument often give birth to innovation.
I will say however that I really honestly don't care much what anyone else, no matter how important they or others think that they are, wants, needs, demands or insists.

In my estimation, people who use their position or sense of self-importance in an attempt to bolster their own opinion or influence their will upon others may in some cases succeed while in other cases they may do so at the cost of credibility or a damaged reputation.
I would certainly hate to see that happen here.

rwidman · 17-05-2013, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

................... In my estimation, people who use their position or sense of self-importance in an attempt to bolster their own opinion or influence their will upon others may in some cases succeed while in other cases they may do so at the cost of credibility or a damaged reputation.
I would certainly hate to see that happen here.

In all fairness, estarzinger didn't seem to try to do that. It was some other folks who likened him to Jesus Christ of cruising.

colemj · 17-05-2013, 15:10

Liam, sailing anarchy is a web-based discussion board like this one. I wasn't making any political statement. I apologize if you already understood that.

Since Evans appears to be gone from here now, I will stick up for him regarding the "fame" issue. No where did Evans speak from a "famous" position on this thread, and I have seen Evans respond and post on many other forums, where he also has never taken a "famous" approach to anything.

Its was a few starry-eyed, easily impressed people on this forum that first brought up Evans's accomplishments and notoriety. They were also the only ones attempting to influence the discussion based solely on that fact.

I don't know Evans personally, but absolutely nothing I have ever seen from him leads me to believe he would act that way or use his accomplishments as anything more than an earned base of expertise to draw upon.

If he did, Beth would probably cut him down so fast - I think his fear of that keeps him humble more than anything...

Mark

conachair · 17-05-2013, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

In my estimation, people who use their position or sense of self-importance in an attempt to bolster their own opinion or influence their will upon others may in some cases succeed while in other cases they may do so at the cost of credibility or a damaged reputation.
I would certainly hate to see that happen here.

Has anything like that happened here?

(BTW, sailing anarchy is another forum)