New iPhones and the imminent death of the MFD

[Exile]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Yes, many people got way to caught up in 'MFD or die'... There are always options.

Some examples there look nice and are less expensive than I expected, starting at $369, but it's only a 7in display. Jumping up to their 15in is $1500. They need a 10in model in their range. But still a nice option get the benefits of both worlds.

https://www.argonautcomputer.com/col...-touch-monitor

I get the impression that Argonaut primarily serves the commercial/military markets, which may explain the dearth of reviews. I first heard about them from John Harries at the Morgan's Cloud/Attainable Adventure Cruising website. I would love to read any other first-hand accounts or reviews of these (or purpose-built marine monitors from various other mfgs.).

Yes, they are certainly no bargain as compared to MFDs, but they do eliminate some of the problems afflicting many consumer-level chartplotters, namely obsolescence, hassle & expense of updating, proprietary charts (with Garmin, for e.g.), etc. They also eliminate the problems associated with the potential fragility of tablets & phones in the marine environment.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Exile

Good advice for offshore work. As far as placement of the MFD/tablet under the dodger, however, why to port? Just curious.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I threw that in partly to see how long it would take for someone to ask. *grin* Warped sense of humor.

This is definitely nitpicking. The display has to go on one side or the other so why not put it on the better side, no matter how marginally better? When standing (sitting) watch under the dodger sitting on the port side every time you look up you are looking in the direction of other traffic with whom you are the give-way vessel. For those over your shoulder and behind you, you are stand-on. This doesn't relieve the watchstander of the responsibility of regular full horizon scans.

The world won't end with display to starboard and other factors may drive to that. Winches and lines led aft, etc...an entirely different rant.

I do feel rather strongly that the display belongs under the dodger and not on some kind of Christmas tree at the helm. Visibility throughout the cockpit and encouraging the helmsperson to keep his/her head outside the boat rather than down toward the video game (no, not Candy Crush--the nav app) are good reasons for mounting under the dodger.

I think CF has had this discussion before.

Ha! Got it now. And I'm good with the nitpicking.

Now that I have more offshore miles under me, I also understand why it's more desirable to have the plotter (along with instruments & radar) under the dodger than on the binnacle, although I do find my helm plotter pretty handy for close-in work and anchoring. Another benefit of mounting under the dodger, however, is a much easier wire run -- at least on my boat.

[daletournier]

My current boat came with 2 x RL70 Raytheons, they are just to old for my needs.

I decided to just go with tablets and a pc downstairs with open cpn installed, many go this route now, mainly for economic reasons.
They mostly perform well and I'm on record here saying I think built in plotters are probably obsolete.

I've changed my mind! I had 2 experiences last year where the lack of built in plotter added unnecessary stress to my situation.

Just after rounding Cape good hope South Africa we got a gale warning over the vhf for later in the afternoon (my fault,didnt have to be there, dont work to deadlines).

The wind built and by the time we were of Hout bay we were copping 50+ knots on the beam and lots of water in the cockpit, we had a couple of hours to go.

Trying to navigate close to shore in those conditions with a tablet is very difficult. I had one crew sit downstairs in front of the computer just to make sure I wasnt missing anything as it was my first time in that area, visibility was minimal due to spray. Trying to stop a tablet blowing away was a genuine concern, there was to much water washing over the waterproof cover to use it effectively.

I've since purchased and installed a axiom that can be seen easily from the helm, I really like it.

[daletournier]

I'll add one more thing, depending on the type of passaging you are doing ,its possible to get really pooped, fill the cockpit.

Several times I've had a large amount of water come in, if the companionway wasnt shut there would of been alot of water downstairs.

I mention this in regards to ruggedness of devices.

[jmh2002]

All good and valid points to consider. I guess something similar to those Argonaut displays, connected to your PC and OpenCPN would be suitable too, as well as keeping some flexibility for integration of other alternative connectivity outside of Raymarine?

Obsolescence is certainly a consideration with these 'all in one' solutions.

That is what I like about OpenCPN. If there is a 'better' chart available (or google earth image, etc, etc) then that can be utilized too without having to set aside the whole system.

[dcstrng]

Interesting discussion – running in predictable circles… Since we’ve had the same/similar discussions over in aviationville, I’m guessing there are no recognizable nav-aides for these discussions. Clearly smartphone in general and iPhones in particular, can provide all sorts of navigational assistance – but… my slide-phone doesn’t do that, oh, and it is usually off anyway… A few years ago I did buy a Garmin handheld GPS (with a tiny micro-chart in the screen – it works, sorta, and is fully sunlight readable). What I found with the electronic gadget was that I got into the bad habit of not planning my trip/excursion until well after I was untied from the dock – where my former paper-chart-self used to plan ahead – all that old-fashioned stuff such courses, deviations, distances, bearings for hand-bearing compass and the like – okay, that is a failing of the skipper, not the gadget… I did get a depth finder in our last boat and it is pretty handy, but sailed for many years on larger boats with a handheld VHF and home-made lead-line (coastal/Bay sailing only) and it always worked too (I did take note of a previous quip that without the gadgetry, I’m not a serious sailor or something… oh well).
I don’t have anything for or against the modern-gadgetry, whatever it takes to make the effort amusing for the owner is what they should do I suspect. I just want to sail, but in the end they are all just tools – some more sophisticated than others (and if my wife’s iPhone is any example, occasionally cantankerous ones), but still just tools… I’ve looked at the MFD (did I get that right), but so far haven’t pulled the trigger – I did buy a sextant a few months back, tho’ – hmmmm…

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Can I assume that you coordinate what you are bringing and the charging thereof with the skipper? Even with my preparatory emails to crew I end up with personal electronics we can't charge, and no I'm not unplugging my go-kit nav system so you can charge something we didn't discuss in planning, and you certainly are not going to overload a cig lighter power point.

Not really.

I expect the skipper to be a prudent sailor and to be able to accommodate the mobile device charging needs of his crew.

I don't put the responsibility for my life in someone's hands unless I feel my life is safe in their hands.

If the skipper can't/won't accommodate charging a crew's mobile device (that may be needed to obtain weather, navigation, or personal communication), I don't want to be on that boat.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Not really.

I expect the skipper to be a prudent sailor and to be able to accommodate the mobile device charging needs of his crew.

I don't put the responsibility for my life in someone's hands unless I feel my life is safe in their hands.

If the skipper can't/won't accommodate charging a crew's mobile device (that may be needed to obtain weather, navigation, or personal communication), I don't want to be on that boat.

So, don't go.

Better yet, make your position known before hand and most likely the skipper won't take you, if he is smart.

No guest or crew member gets to dictate to the owner or skipper what equipment or charging capability is prudent or safe, beyond the crew member's own opinion, which is best kept to himself. If you don't like the way the boat is equipped, simply decline with graciousness.

However, all skippers get to decide what people they will take on their vessel, and demanding crew members who claim to know better than the skipper are likely to be trouble anyhow. Better off leaving them ashore.

Finally, the crew member, unless he/she is a dedicated navigator, has no need for his/her own navigation devices, and personal communication needs are basically a luxury which can ( and perhaps should be) foregone.

So, like I said, don't go.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by wingssail

So, don't go.

Better yet, make your position known before hand and most likely the skipper won't take you, if he is smart.

No guest or crew member gets to dictate to the owner or skipper what equipment or charging capability is prudent or safe, beyond the crew member's own opinion, which is best kept to himself. If you don't like the way the boat is equipped, simply decline with graciousness.

However, all skippers get to decide what people they will take on their vessel, and demanding crew members who claim to know better than the skipper are likely to be trouble anyhow. Better off leaving them ashore.

Finally, the crew member, unless he/she is a dedicated navigator, has no need for his/her own navigation devices, and personal communication needs are basically a luxury which can ( and perhaps should be) foregone.

So, like I said, don't go.

When asked to crew I interview the skipper and inspect the vessel.

If I am not satisfied with the skipper’s experience, attitude, or the condition of the vessel, I decline.

The relationship in the selection of skipper and crew is not a one way street. It goes both ways.

If I question the skippers judgement based on the interview or inspection, I don’t go.

Why would any competent sailor put their lives in the hands of an incompetent one?

[cuthbert]

I'm interested in this thread as my boat does not have a radar/plotter and it is next on my list of add ons. So i looked and looked and its a toss up between paying top dollar (I looked for many months) for someone elses cast off equipment or being forced into a Raymarine upgrade path as the older instrument x doesn't talk to new plotter y.

I'm going the Furuno Wifi radar route with an ipad.

It is a no brainer. Even if a 70 or 80 series plotter had fallen in my lap the pod to mount it in would seem to carry remarkable pricing for fairly simple boxes.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

When asked to crew I interview the skipper and inspect the vessel.

If I am not satisfied with the skipper’s experience, attitude, or the condition of the vessel, I decline.

The relationship in the selection of skipper and crew is not a one way street. It goes both ways.

If I question the skippers judgement based on the interview or inspection, I don’t go.

Why would any competent sailor put their lives in the hands of an incompetent one?

Certainly lack of a charging station for the crew's ipad does not indicate incompetence (that was the issue here, right?)

I have plenty of outlets into which a power adaptor can be plugged and am happy to provide the electricity to do so, it's always on anyhow.

But I would be less than thrilled by a crew member whose attitude seems a bit off-putting. I'm just reacting to the tone of your comment. I'm just a bit warned when someone "inspects" my boat and "interviews" me to decide whether I am "competent".

Maybe we'd both be happier not being on the same boat, and no, selection of crew does not go both ways; a prospective crew member can decline, but only the skipper can decide to take them.

[ramblinrod]

PS, I have crewed on many boats and been more than happy to take orders from the skipper, even if I would personally choose different, because I respected their authority.

However, I have also agreed to crew on a boat, if an only if, I was in charge.

The owner agreed without question, as they knew I was more competent than they, and recognized they, and the crew, would be in better hands.

This was for a several hundred mile race, with the owner, his grandson, and 4 other crew aboard.

Had he not agreed, I simply would not have gone.

The other crew prospects also wouldn’t commit until they heard I was going to skipper.

We had a great race, despite 1/4 of the 300 boat fleet being wiped out by T-storms and retiring in the first 8 hours.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Certainly lack of a charging station for the crew's ipad does not indicate incompetence (that was the issue here, right?)

I have plenty of outlets into which a power adaptor can be plugged and am happy to provide the electricity to do so, it's always on anyhow.

But I would be less than thrilled by a crew member whose attitude seems a bit off-putting. I'm just reacting to the tone of your comment. I'm just a bit warned when someone "inspects" my boat and "interviews" me to decide whether I am "competent".

Maybe we'd both be happier not being on the same boat, and no, selection of crew does not go both ways; a prospective crew member can decline, but only the skipper can decide to take them.

To each their own. If I was seeking crew for a long passage, and they didn’t interview me to ascertain my competence and check my vessel to ensure it was sound, I would question their competence/experience as crew.

An inexperienced crew may be OK as long as they are honest about it.

[Mystic38]

simply.. +1 on all counts

Originally Posted by wingssail

So, don't go.

Better yet, make your position known before hand and most likely the skipper won't take you, if he is smart.

No guest or crew member gets to dictate to the owner or skipper what equipment or charging capability is prudent or safe, beyond the crew member's own opinion, which is best kept to himself. If you don't like the way the boat is equipped, simply decline with graciousness.

However, all skippers get to decide what people they will take on their vessel, and demanding crew members who claim to know better than the skipper are likely to be trouble anyhow. Better off leaving them ashore.

Finally, the crew member, unless he/she is a dedicated navigator, has no need for his/her own navigation devices, and personal communication needs are basically a luxury which can ( and perhaps should be) foregone.

So, like I said, don't go.

[ramblinrod]

In my opinion, the relationship is a lot more symbiotic than some have expressed.

A skipper needs/wants crew.

The crew wants/needs a ride.

After the interview, the skipper has the right to choose to accept or reject.

After the interview, the crew has the right to accept or reject.

Only if both accept dies the crew take the ride.

If either reject, it simply doesn’t happen.