Class B AIS waste of money

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nigel1

Dockhead, my post was explaining about filtering out AIS targets. In busy waters, all AIS alarms are filtered out (turned off), and we rely on eyesight and radar.
I fully appreciate the problem with small radar sets, and the use of AIS on small boats to determine CPA/TCPA.
Under most normal conditions, the AIS/CPA alarms are active and I certainly would not filter out Class B targets, nor do I know of any other skipper who does.

Thanks for sharing your experience -- always really enlightening.


I did understand your point about alarms, and my practice is the same. I don't think alarms are useful at all in crowded conditions. Especially in harbor approaches with vessels following channels or fairways.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by nigel1

Transit into and out of Rotterdam comes to mind, in fact, a lot of busy harbours on rivers, AIS alarms become a distraction rather than useful.
Outside of these area's, AIS/ARPA alarms are set to limits appropriate to the conditions, that would include Dover Straits etc.

Ah, alarms, sorry missed that in the first post. I was thinking of just the display I only really turn alarms on crossing an empty ocean. Yes, can see how alarms could easily go into overload in many places around the channel. Ta.

[transmitterdan]

Nigel,

We appreciate your perspective. Most big ship masters I have met tell me exactly what you have said. This idea that big ships are commanded by uncaring, unseeing, nit-wits baffles me. Commercial and military ship masters are by a huge percentage margin well trained and very cognizant of the small craft in their area.

AIS for small craft could use lots of improvement in terms of alarm generation. Especially so in confined waters. But on big bodies of water it is extremely useful and not a waste of money in my view.

I don't think small craft capable of <20k speed should have class A. It simply adds unnecessary clutter IMO.

And please, please stop using AIS as a security device so you know where your yacht is. In the slip turn off AIS...please.

[brownoarsman]

Heh, this thread is funny especially as it pertains to a recent conversation I had with iCom support. They told me that they were developing a handheld radio with AIS capabilities. So just wait until everyone has AIS on their main boat, and zipping around in their dinghies!

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

The issue of clutter is not a fault of AIS. The whole goal is to ultimately have all vessels transmitting and receiving AIS data..

Really? Ski boats? Bowriders? Uncle Bubba's duck hunting boat?

I mentioned that proposal a while back. Thankfully, calmer heads prevailed and it was dismissed.

On a nice summer weekend, there can be a hundred boats zipping back and forth across and around my local harbor. That's far too much clutter to be of use to anyone so a ship captain would have to turn it off or ignore it. So what has been gained? Nothing. Nothing at all.

I'm not a fisherman, but I have heard their opinions on this. They have their favorite fishing spots and they don't want others to know where they are fishing. They are going to turn off their AIS transmitter or disconnect it if there is no switch to turn it off.

Commercial vessels over a certain size, yes, mandatory AIS. Recreational vessels over a certain size, perhaps. Recreational boats in general, optional. We have enough requirements already.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Heh, this thread is funny especially as it pertains to a recent conversation I had with iCom support. They told me that they were developing a handheld radio with AIS capabilities. So just wait until everyone has AIS on their main boat, and zipping around in their dinghies!

If you call them back and ask, I'll be they are talking about an AIS receiver, not a transceiver.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by rwidman

On a nice summer weekend, there can be a hundred boats zipping back and forth across and around my local harbor. That's far too much clutter to be of use to anyone so a ship captain would have to turn it off or ignore it. So what has been gained? Nothing. Nothing at all.

OK, so the AIS display gets cluttered. Cluttered with boats that are really there. Some of these even show up on radar. If the watchstander looks out the window they might see that this "clutter" is actual boats with actual people in them.

Or don't they matter?

Fix the darn display user-interface.

[Sailshabby]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

OK, so the AIS display gets cluttered. Cluttered with boats that are really there. Some of these even show up on radar. If the watchstander looks out the window they might see that this "clutter" is actual boats with actual people in them.

Or don't they matter?

Fix the darn display user-interface.

What Paul said. Do you think you need AIS on in your local harbor when you've got, you know... eyes?

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by rwidman

If you call them back and ask, I'll be they are talking about an AIS receiver, not a transceiver.

Pretty sure it was a transceiver. I had a bad experience that I thought AIS would help me prevent in future, and since I was looking at replacing a handheld anyways, I asked specifically if there was one that would broadcast my position. He didn't know how far it was from market though.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Pretty sure it was a transceiver. I had a bad experience that I thought AIS would help me prevent in future, and since I was looking at replacing a handheld anyways, I asked specifically if there was one that would broadcast my position. He didn't know how far it was from market though.

It's hard for me to believe that would be legal. I mean you could be walking around town broadcasting an AIS signal. Eating in a restaurant, in a museum, etc.

I know that, at least in the USA, when you buy an AIS transmitter (transceiver), you have to fill out a bunch of paperwork with information on the boat including where on the boat the antenna will be mounted.

Add that to all the clutter from the runabouts and duck boats transmitting and surely others are going to turn theirs off.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

OK, so the AIS display gets cluttered. Cluttered with boats that are really there. Some of these even show up on radar. If the watchstander looks out the window they might see that this "clutter" is actual boats with actual people in them.

Or don't they matter?

Fix the darn display user-interface.

They don't matter. The tanker or container ship can't move out of their way and shouldn't even if it could. It can't stop either.

If you're in a crowded commercial harbor in your small recreational boat, it's your job to stay out of their way. Fail and you become chum.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

They don't matter. The tanker or container ship can't move out of their way and shouldn't even if it could. It can't stop either.

If you're in a crowded commercial harbor in your small recreational boat, it's your job to stay out of their way. Fail and you become chum.

You've clearly never stood on the bridge of a ship underway.

Of course all traffic matters, to an even slightly professional watchstander on a ship. Even if he doesn't care about your life, he certainly cares about the massive hassle and likely career damage which would ensure, from running down some WAFI.

Another question is what tools he will use, in what locations. As we've heard from the real ship's captain above, Nigel, AIS is not really all that useful in busy harbors in any case, and certainly not the alarms. So "clutter" is not really a problem, for anyone using the AIS correctly.


I agree entirely with Paul. I would much rather have every vessel at sea broadcasting, so that the information is there if I need it. If the screen is "cluttered", then that's not a problem of the system, it's a problem of life. In such cases I won't be looking at the screen anyway. In busy harbors with vessels following channels and fairways, the concept of CPA doesn't work anyway, so you only really need AIS to tell you that a vessel is out there (on occasion), not to work out a crossing. "Clutter" is not really a problem.


As to Uncle Bubba's bass boat -- don't run across too many of those in the ocean. And if one of them happened to actually be out there -- then I would all the more like to see it on AIS, as it might be hard to spot visually, and might not even show up well on my radar.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You've clearly never stood on the bridge of a ship underway.

Of course all traffic matters, to an even slightly professional watchstander on a ship. Even if he doesn't care about your life, he certainly cares about the massive hassle and likely career damage which would ensure, from running down some WAFI.

Another question is what tools he will use, in what locations. As we've heard from the real ship's captain above, Nigel, AIS is not really all that useful in busy harbors in any case, and certainly not the alarms. So "clutter" is not really a problem, for anyone using the AIS correctly.


I agree entirely with Paul. I would much rather have every vessel at sea broadcasting, so that the information is there if I need it. If the screen is "cluttered", then that's not a problem of the system, it's a problem of life. In such cases I won't be looking at the screen anyway. In busy harbors with vessels following channels and fairways, the concept of CPA doesn't work anyway, so you only really need AIS to tell you that a vessel is out there (on occasion), not to work out a crossing. "Clutter" is not really a problem.


As to Uncle Bubba's bass boat -- don't run across too many of those in the ocean. And if one of them happened to actually be out there -- then I would all the more like to see it on AIS, as it might be hard to spot visually, and might not even show up well on my radar.

You've replied to my post but not to what I posted. Every boat doesn't need to be and shouldn't be transmitting an AIS signal. Just the big ones.

Standing on the bridge of a ship underway has nothing to do with it.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You've replied to my post but not to what I posted. Every boat doesn't need to be and shouldn't be transmitting an AIS signal. Just the big ones.

Nice to know what the fishing boats are up to as well, more and more of them are transmitting these days. Very useful info.

[Paul Elliott]

(Re: Handheld VHF with built-in AIS transceiver)

Originally Posted by rwidman

It's hard for me to believe that would be legal. I mean you could be walking around town broadcasting an AIS signal. Eating in a restaurant, in a museum, etc.

I know that, at least in the USA, when you buy an AIS transmitter (transceiver), you have to fill out a bunch of paperwork with information on the boat including where on the boat the antenna will be mounted.

Add that to all the clutter from the runabouts and duck boats transmitting and surely others are going to turn theirs off.

Perhaps it was an AIS SART (Search And Rescue Transponder), built into the handheld VHF? If you go overboard with the VHF on your person, you push the red button to activate the AIS beacon?