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Old 13-01-2015, 06:14   #226
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
Certainly if someone lacks basic navigation skills, it's irresponsible of them to go on the internet and start telling an unknown audience that you don't need to be prudent when navigating a 20 000 lb status symbol across oceans.
I have never seen this occur on this forum, or any other forum. Could you provide a link to an example for me to look at? Or is this another strawman?

Mark
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Old 13-01-2015, 06:20   #227
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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The function of the plotter remains the same but the effect it has on the operator is different. I'm not sure some of the posters here understand the difference
Can you provide any evidence for this, or at minimum a good argument for it?

And explain how it is different from someone getting into trouble without a chartplotter? I have provided 9 examples of people losing their boats attempting to navigate a reef with paper charts that did not contain the more accurate data of the corresponding electronic charts, but I have not said that paper charts have any effect on people - even in the face of posters actually saying that the only faith they have is in paper charts.

If the effect chartplotters have on their operators is so dangerous, are you suggesting they should be banned or licensed?

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Old 13-01-2015, 06:26   #228
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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This is pretty much what I have been trying to say.

A chart plotter does not MAKE people do things. That is confusing correlation with causation. Many posters here want to perceive a relationship between the two because it fits their worldview and biases.

However, it is literally a logical fallacy, not to mention a cherry-picked data set (another argumentative logical fallacy). Nobody addresses the full data set of people getting into trouble without chartplotters. Even very experienced navigators. While ignoring that chartplotters may have saved some of these - for example, misjudging a current or leeway set is almost impossible on a chartplotter compared to DR.

Then there is the strawman fallacy that has been put forth that I am not only advocating sole use of chartplotters, but eschewing all other navigational tools like compasses and depth sounders, etc. This has been such a stupid argument that I have ignored it. I don't know of a single cruiser who has a chartplotter but no compass, depth sounder, knotmeter, etc.

Finally, the anecdotal fallacy of using individual personal experience or isolated examples as representative of full data sets instead of exemplars to a point, as I attempted with my personal LORAN story above.

My only real argument has been that if planned properly, paper charts are unnecessary today. As for losing electrical, many here couldn't find their rear with both hands if their GPS went down, so a paper chart would not be much use. Even those with sextants would probably get into trouble without a calculator and electric timepiece - even if they had maintained practiced skills with the sextant itself.

I have engaged on this thread in an attempt to put the above in perspective. Strangely, this perspective enrages some here.

Mark
First of all. I've said I won't be responding to your posts any more, but here we go.
I see you're back to your name calling- no surprises there.
This is the first time in all your posts you've advocated a balanced approach, so I take that to mean you've finally realised your argument was deeply flawed, your arrogance prevents you from admitting you were wrong all along.
So good, now that we are finally on the same page and making the same argument I can figure out how to put you on my ignore list.

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Old 13-01-2015, 06:51   #229
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
First of all. I've said I won't be responding to your posts any more, but here we go.
I see you're back to your name calling- no surprises there.
This is the first time in all your posts you've advocated a balanced approach, so I take that to mean you've finally realised your argument was deeply flawed, your arrogance prevents you from admitting you were wrong all along.
So good, now that we are finally on the same page and making the same argument I can figure out how to put you on my ignore list.
Please show me where I called you names (BTW, that post you quoted wasn't even responding to you). Pointing out logical fallacies in arguments is not calling names.

As for advocating using all navigation tools, I reference below the times on this thread where I have done just so. In fact, I have never advocated differently.

I have just pointed out where the tool is being unfairly blamed, and suggesting that the relative importance of tools may be different than others believe. For example, I doubt few here believe that GPS fixes are less important than sextant fixes. I can make a valid argument that drift set is better and easier understood with an electronic plotter than with a compass.

So how about attacking my points, and not me? Misrepresenting my arguments is not valid.

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Of course, Jon. But that doesn't change whether you have paper or electronic charts.
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Triangulation on landmarks works even better with electronic charts because you can easily draw and move bearing lines.
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You make a lot of assumptions about people with chartplotters.
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
No argument here - I am perfectly acceptable of all types of navigation - sextants, DR, paper charts, electronic charts, electronic devices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
This is pretty much what I have been trying to say.
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Old 13-01-2015, 07:05   #230
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

guys - let's calm down. reading through most of this, everyone seems to be pretty much in agreement. Chartplotters are a useful tools that have helped a lot of people get on the water that otherwise wouldn't have.
Additionally a good chartplotter makes navigating much easier - for everyone.

Finally all navigational tools have their uses, either as a primary tool or a back-up. the wise sailor is aware of the advantages and shortcomings of each tool he (her - no discrimination here) uses. And being aware of this, he/she relies on alternate navigational tools as a "second opinion" when necessary.
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Old 13-01-2015, 07:06   #231
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

You've called me a Straw man half a dozen times? Amongst other attempts to discredit me rather than my argument. That would be the insults I'm referring to.
My arguments are logical and well laid out, I'm just providing evidence you don't want to hear.
Did you forget what this post was all about?
Another foundering how do Chartplotters get it wrong? I've been explaining how and why chart plotters get it wrong. Improper use.
Now please- leave me out of your threads. I am confident I have nothing I can learn from you.

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Old 13-01-2015, 07:18   #232
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

As is often the case, the original posting has gotten lost in a bunch of name calling and bumping of *ick heads!

I have my own opinion on chart plotters and I'm sure everyone else does. And I'm just as sure that nobody has changed anyone else's opinion by whatever they have posted here.
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Old 13-01-2015, 07:23   #233
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
You've called me a Straw man half a dozen times? Amongst other attempts to discredit me rather than my argument. That would be the insults I'm referring to.
My arguments are logical and well laid out, I'm just providing evidence you don't want to hear.
Did you forget what this post was all about?
Another foundering how do Chartplotters get it wrong? I've been explaining how and why chart plotters get it wrong. Improper use.
Now please- leave me out of your threads. I am confident I have nothing I can learn from you.
What? I have called certain of your arguments "strawman". It doesn't make any sense calling a person a strawman.

Everything I have addressed has been your arguments. I have even used those specific words - ie "that is a strawman fallacy", "that is an anecdotal argument", etc. I have used these with lines of reasoning from others too.

I have made no attempt to "discredit" you or anyone else - I have only addressed the arguments that have been used to make assertions that I don't agree with.

The above is so obvious that I won't go back and provide the quotes unless you ask me to.

This is how discourse works, and it is not disrespectful.

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Old 13-01-2015, 07:45   #234
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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I'll make one final comment in this thread.
An experienced skipper will be a better and safer skipper by using professional electronic charts and associated plotter/computer software as their primary navigation tool instead of paper charts and manual plotting as their primary navigation tool.
To that, I would say "Not necessarily"... :-)

I still believe paper can often have great value, particularly for initial route planning. The recent grounding of TEAM VESTAS WIND would seem to me to be an example of this, where the existence of the Cargados Carajos Shoals and the lighthouse on Isle du Sud less than a mile from the point they hit the reef is clearly indicated on British Admiralty Chart 4072 - Indian Ocean, Western Part... Which covers the entire freakin' route of Leg 2 from Cape Town to Abu Dhabi...





I'm guessing in hindsight, Wouter Verbraak realizes his apparent failure to have a look at that chart spread out before him - whether prior to their departure from Cape Town, or after turning north after passing Mauritius - might even have been a more fundamental mistake, than his failure to zoom in sufficiently to have the existence of that reef 'revealed' to him, in order to navigate around it...

Especially when fatigue might be a factor, I still believe there can be no better substitute for the clarity and legibility of a large paper chart of the appropriate scale spread out before a navigator, with the 'Big Picture', and a greater wealth of detail, available to him or her at a glance, without all the requisite panning and zooming...
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Old 13-01-2015, 08:28   #235
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

I'm still not following the argument that a Chartplotter should be the primary tool for navigation.
Are we talking open ocean? I definitely see the value to GPS here because celestial navigation is a pain. I can certainly admit my skill aren't were they were 15 years ago. But in open ocean when one or two fixes a day is adequate, just a plain old GPS is fine.
A chart plotter is very valuable to a single hander who is unable to maintain a deck watch, but their primary concern here should be collision avoidance. AIS and RADAR trump ECS for collision avoidance.

For nearshore pilotage I would put eyes first, RADAR second. To me a RADAR will show where land and buoys are, not where they are supposed to be.
A Chartplotter is great for close quarters boat handling, I really appreciate the vector features, and no doubt it's handy for a quick position reference.
More important then the other tools? I just can't see it.



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Old 13-01-2015, 12:20   #236
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

A chart plotter is good for lots of things besides knowing position. Computing time to destination, time to course change, speed over ground, course over ground, distance off your planned route and other things not easy to do with radar and eyes. I have read no one advocating reliance on a chart plotter when it disagrees with your own eyes. But at night your eyes can be tricked. Having a known track in your chart plotter can help prevent tired eyes from leading you astray. Radar, AIS and VHF at night and in fog is important too.

Let's stop making straw man arguments that rely on the skipper being a complete moron or Armageddon. Paper won't help those situations either.
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Old 13-01-2015, 12:53   #237
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Oh good another guy on the straw man band wagon.
At least Mark thought it up on his own.


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Old 13-01-2015, 13:00   #238
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

So TransmitterDan. I'll ask you the same question I posed to Mark. "Another foundering how do Chartplotters get it wrong?". Or are you satisfied with just making false accusations?

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Old 13-01-2015, 13:12   #239
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

"To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant of the original question". So I attempt to answer the original question through first hand experience and training as to how a Chartplotter could have "gotten it wrong" and you two answer by saying Electronic Charts are better than paper charts". Pointedly avoiding the original question so you have a podium from which to preach your very biased technophylic beliefs.
Who's the straw man?

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Old 13-01-2015, 13:27   #240
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Having recently completed two deliveries, one transatlantic with a CP, the other to Trinidad, no CP. Used roughly the same routing as far as Puerto Rico. The CP did provide an additional visual reference for the near land navigation, however, everything was plotted on a paper chart prior, and a position was logged every 2 hours and plotted on the paper charts every 4 hours, with verification via Radar and DR. Managed to arrive at both locations approx. 24 hours prior to ETA and did not run aground. I always cushion my ETAs in case of bad weather. CPs do not provide the user with good judgment, they can be a good augment. Don't forget to look out the window and use the computer between your ears for something besides a hat rack. As Ron White is fond of saying "You can't fix stupid". I avoid making landfall at or near dark and will adjust my speed accordingly to insure I don't.
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