Advice on electronics upgrade

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bmz

I know there are some AIS/chart plotter combos that permit class A/B selection, but mine (a new Garmin) and most others don't.

Newsflash: do you really think you can get anywhere with a strawman argument? All I ever said was that class B transponders are hazard--so please don't try to put words in my mouth--but then again that appears to be all you have.

Small boats in periods of good visibility can see each other easily and maneuver around each other easily. They don't need to be cluttering up chart plotters. What we all do need to see are large commercial vessels (class A)--we must yield to them, and they couldn't maneuver away from us if they wanted to. Your transponder provides you with nothing that a receiver only wouldn't regarding them(they don't yield to you). Your statement that an AIS receiver should not be made is simply frivolous.
I recognize that a class B transponder has value in periods of poor visibility; that is why it is only recently that I have come to the conclusion that they shouldn't be sold. If the sailors who owned them used them responsibly, they could be justified. But you can't, and you are destroying a valuable safety feature for our waterways.

As someone suggested -- you would feel differently about this if you had a better display.

Having people try to guess when people want to see you or not, and switching your transmitter on and off according to these guesses, is a recipe for disaster.

Good visibility absolutely does not eliminate the need for AIS. The purpose of AIS is not primarily to make you aware of something you can't see (radar is better for that), but to give you instant calculations about how you are crossing with a target, so that you know whether you have to take action, and what kind of action you need to take. It is EXACTLY when you are dealing with heavy traffic and a multitude of targets, when AIS is most valuable, because this is when on a short-handed recreational vessel you don't have time to do a MARPA plot or hand plot on all the possible collision risks. So it is exactly the "clutter" situations when you need AIS the most, and when you most need for EVERYBODY to be transmitting.

Clutter is not a problem on a good display. With a decent display, and with understanding of how to operate the system, you want everybody to transmit, all the time. It's much safer.

Incidentally, the best AIS display in creation is basically free-- OpenCPN. For really serious collision avoidance work, I use O on a 23" 4k monitor at my nav table in preference to the much less good display on my B&G plotters. I sail the busiest seaways in the world -- English Channel, Dover Straits, North Sea, German Bight. Collision avoidance can be a really extremely intense job in these waters, and sometimes every day. People NOT broadcasting AIS really makes that job far more complicated, especially when you are dealing with many targets at one time.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by bmz

Large commercial vessels are constrained by their lack of maneuverability and are therefore always the stand on vessel, even in blue water.

My chart plotter identifies class A targets; nonetheless, class B clutter can obscure their vectors and potential collision intercepts. Moreover, class B clutter has long ago forced me to turn off my audible alarms.

That sort of totally false (and dangerous) statement certainly illustrated how much weight to put on your other assertions.

[bmz]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Reread the Colregs. This is just a false statement.

Riiight-- try Colregs 10 and 18

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by bmz

Riiight-- try Colregs 10 and 18

You made a blanket statement about large vessels even in bluewater. Rule 10 covers Traffic Sesperation zones which is not blue water. Rule 18 clearly gives Sailboats rights over motor vessels. A large ship is not considered to be "a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;" when offshore.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by bmz

Riiight-- try Colregs 10 and 18

COLREG 10 - Refers to conduct in and around Traffic Separation Schemes.
The relevance to your statement that "Large commercial vessels are constrained by their lack of maneuverability and are therefore always the stand on vessel, even in blue water." is NIL

COLREG 18 - I presume you are taking your own classification of a large commercial vessel as "constrained by their lack of maneuverability" to mean the same as "a vessel restricted in her ability to manouevre"

You really need to read and understand what that term means: viz:

(g). The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term “vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre” shall include but not be limited to:
(i). a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii). a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii). a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv). a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v). a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi). a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

If a large commercial vessel is able to keep out the way of another large commercial vessel when the rules require them to do so, they are clearly NOT "restricted in their ability to manouevre".

And if they are for some reason "restricted in their ability to manoeuvre", then they are required to be showing "white over red over white" by night and "ball over diamond over ball" by day. How many large commercial vessels have you seen displaying those?

Once again, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

COLREG 10 - Refers to conduct in and around Traffic Separation Schemes.
The relevance to your statement that "Large commercial vessels are constrained by their lack of maneuverability and are therefore always the stand on vessel, even in blue water." is NIL

COLREG 18 - I presume you are taking your own classification of a large commercial vessel as "constrained by their lack of maneuverability" to mean the same as "a vessel restricted in her ability to manouevre"

You really need to read and understand what that term means: viz:

(g). The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term “vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre” shall include but not be limited to:
(i). a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii). a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii). a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv). a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v). a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi). a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

If a large commercial vessel is able to keep out the way of another large commercial vessel when the rules require them to do so, they are clearly NOT "restricted in their ability to manouevre".

And if they are for some reason "restricted in their ability to manoeuvre", then they are required to be showing "white over red over white" by night and "ball over diamond over ball" by day. How many large commercial vessels have you seen displaying those?

Once again, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Yes. And even in a TSS, commercial vessels are not "stand-on, always". You are "not to impede" them, but if a risk of collision arises, the normal Rules apply.

Someone needs to go to the woodshed with a copy of the COLREGS. A lot of completely false, and actually dangerous concepts have been propagated in this thread. Commercial mariners call us "WAFIs" exactly for such ideas.

[bmz]

You guys are really dangerously arrogant. In order to continue to play with your toys, you will jeopardize the safety of everybody else around you. Perhaps more significantly, you will probably get yourself killed. I have been a licensed captain for over 30 years, and I have never heard in all that of time the nonsense I am witnessing here.
"Following is the order of increasing maneuverability. Any boat lower on the list must give way to boats higher on the list:
1) A disabled boat,  2)A boat that is difficult to maneuver, like a dredge or barge in tow  3)A boat whose maneuverability is restricted by size or draft, like a freighter 4) A boat engaged in commercial fishing, like a trawler  5)A boat being rowed  5)A sailboat  6)A recreational powerboat
http://wow.uscgaux.info/Uploads_wowI..._Sailboats.pdf

Law of Gross Tonnage
The law, which is more common sense then explicitly written in the code, goes like this: "The heavier vessel always has the right-of-way."
This is based on simple Newtonian physics. Newton's first law talks about objects in motion stay in motion unless another force is acted upon it. In other words, if a boat is moving east at 5 mph and you were in the vacuum of space, it would never stop traveling east at 5 mph. However, we all know when we stop our engine on our boat, we slow down.
How long it takes to go from 5 mph to zero depends on wind, and current. Even if there was no wind or current, we'd still slow down, because the water itself provides friction upon the hull of the boat, and that in itself acts as a brake.
We have all observed that the bigger the object, the longer it takes to slow down. Newton's second law of physics talks about how the amount of force required to move an object is inversely proportional to the mass of the object.
So, if a tug and barge were traveling down a narrow channel, and you stopped your boat 1,000 feet away, right in front of the tug and barge; and, if the master of the tug saw you immediately; and if the master of the tug immediately began to stop the tug and barge; you'd have less than one minute to move your vessel.
If you didn't move your vessel in less than 60 small seconds, the tug and barge would just run right over you. It would be impossible for the master of the tug to stop, based of the collective mass of both the vessel and the barge, in 1,000 feet.
The law of gross tonnage is un-relenting. It is a fact of life. Another fact of life is that you should not depend on the master of the tug or any other large vessel is able to see you, either visually or on radar.
https://americanboating.org/bigger_on_the_water.asp

See also, http://www.boatsmartexam.com/knowled...1-949x1024.jpg

[bmz]

BTW, At sea "traffic lanes" usually refer to bluewater traffic lanes such as those north-south lanes along the US coasts.
@Dockhead: As the moderator of this blog you owe it to everyone here to properly research this issue or contact the Coast Guard.
YOU ARE DANGEROUSLY MISINFORMED.
These guys with their little class B transponders, will get themselves and their crew killed if they expect large commercial traffic to yield to them, bluewater or otherwise.

[Jerry Woodward]

HELLO BMZ, ARE YOU LISTENING?

I said it before and I'll say it again. You hijacked my thread. This thread was never about the merits of AIS. Please take your rant to your own thread. This thread concerns strategies for adding a N2K network with Vesper and some new N2K devices and some older 0183 devices. I think this information will be useful for a lot of people transitioning to N2K.

Thank you.

[bmz]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As someone suggested -- you would feel differently about this if you had a better display.

Having people try to guess when people want to see you or not, and switching your transmitter on and off according to these guesses, is a recipe for disaster.

Good visibility absolutely does not eliminate the need for AIS. The purpose of AIS is not primarily to make you aware of something you can't see (radar is better for that), but to give you instant calculations about how you are crossing with a target, so that you know whether you have to take action, and what kind of action you need to take. It is EXACTLY when you are dealing with heavy traffic and a multitude of targets, when AIS is most valuable, because this is when on a short-handed recreational vessel you don't have time to do a MARPA plot or hand plot on all the possible collision risks. So it is exactly the "clutter" situations when you need AIS the most, and when you most need for EVERYBODY to be transmitting.

Clutter is not a problem on a good display. With a decent display, and with understanding of how to operate the system, you want everybody to transmit, all the time. It's much safer.

Incidentally, the best AIS display in creation is basically free-- OpenCPN. For really serious collision avoidance work, I use O on a 23" 4k monitor at my nav table in preference to the much less good display on my B&G plotters. I sail the busiest seaways in the world -- English Channel, Dover Straits, North Sea, German Bight. Collision avoidance can be a really extremely intense job in these waters, and sometimes every day. People NOT broadcasting AIS really makes that job far more complicated, especially when you are dealing with many targets at one time.

I don't know if you are being sincere--your arguments are really beneath you. Your argument that I don't have a good enough display applies to the overwhelming majority of recreational boaters and probably 90% of sailors--all those who have their AIS on their chart plotters.

The ludicrousness of your position is best evidenced by your statement about people not having time "to do a MARPA or hand plot of all possible collision risks." Right--99% of recreational boaters don't even know what you're talking about--so who are you talking to? "For really serious collision avoidance work, I use O on a 23" 4k monitor at my nav table in preference to the much less good display on my B&G plotters." I guess that tells it all.

"The purpose of AIS is not primarily to make you aware of something you can't see (radar is better for that)"

AIS is not only better than radar because it is far sharper, clearer, provides more valuable info and superimposes on your chart plotter, but at $200--far cheaper.

"[AIS gives] you instant calculations about how you are crossing with a target, so that you know whether you have to take action, and what kind of action you need to take" Riiight again--it is so great when your AIS shows you multiple targets clustered together with a half a dozen collision intercepts, and there is only one you really need to see. Without class B tx you would see only that one important intercept. This is why I question whether you are being serious or not. It's simply not defensible that you really want the dangerous targets and intercepts obscured and overwhelmed by irrelevant targets.

A large freighter 5 miles away with a collision intercept is an important target; a 30 foot recreational vessel intercept is basically irrelevant: the recreational vessel will invariably change its course (the freighter usually not), and when it is 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64 of a mile away you will see each other and be able to maneuver appropriately. For you to say that you want that freighter collision intercept to be obscured by multiple recreational vessel intercepts, is clearly disingenuous and as I said at the outset, beneath you.

[bmz]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

HELLO BMZ, ARE YOU LISTENING?

I said it before and I'll say it again. You hijacked my thread. This thread was never about the merits of AIS. Please take your rant to your own thread. This thread concerns strategies for adding a N2K network with Vesper and some new N2K devices and some older 0183 devices. I think this information will be useful for a lot of people transitioning to N2K.

Thank you.

I'm sorry, I was trying to convince you to be considerate of other sailors in your instrument purchases. I was hoping that you wouldn't consider that to be irrelevant.

However, I don't think anyone owns a thread. Threads often go off on tangents, especially as in this one, where an issue of safety to other sailors becomes involved. Here some potentially very dangerous misinformation was provided; and, as a licensed captain I felt obligated to clear the issue up.

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by bmz

I'm sorry, I was trying to convince you to be considerate of other sailors in your instrument purchases. I was hoping that you wouldn't consider that to be irrelevant.

However, I don't think anyone owns a thread. Threads often go off on tangents, especially as in this one, where an issue of safety to other sailors becomes involved. Here some potentially very dangerous misinformation was provided; and, as a licensed captain I felt obligated to clear the issue up.

No, of course no one owns a thread. But there are different thread categories in CF for a reason. When I start to read a thread because I'm interested in a particular instrument and it goes completely off topic with inflammatory language and personal insults, I get irritated and feel that it ruins the best that CF has to offer. All I'm asking is that you post this topic as a separate thread so people can argue to their heart's content about the virtues/dangers of AIS without drowning out other useful information. It also benefits you, because your central theme that you feel so passionately about will have it's own thread.

With respect to "trying to convince people to be considerate of other sailors in your instrument purchases", this is your opinion and it is duly noted. However, I didn't ask whether or not I should buy an AIS transponder, I am simply asking for advice on setting up an N2K system with an AIS transponder as part of it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bmz

You guys are really dangerously arrogant. In order to continue to play with your toys, you will jeopardize the safety of everybody else around you. Perhaps more significantly, you will probably get yourself killed. I have been a licensed captain for over 30 years, and I have never heard in all that of time the nonsense I am witnessing here.
"Following is the order of increasing maneuverability. Any boat lower on the list must give way to boats higher on the list:
1) A disabled boat,  2)A boat that is difficult to maneuver, like a dredge or barge in tow  3)A boat whose maneuverability is restricted by size or draft, like a freighter 4) A boat engaged in commercial fishing, like a trawler  5)A boat being rowed  5)A sailboat  6)A recreational powerboat
http://wow.uscgaux.info/Uploads_wowI..._Sailboats.pdf

Law of Gross Tonnage
The law, which is more common sense then explicitly written in the code, goes like this: "The heavier vessel always has the right-of-way."
This is based on simple Newtonian physics. Newton's first law talks about objects in motion stay in motion unless another force is acted upon it. In other words, if a boat is moving east at 5 mph and you were in the vacuum of space, it would never stop traveling east at 5 mph. However, we all know when we stop our engine on our boat, we slow down.
How long it takes to go from 5 mph to zero depends on wind, and current. Even if there was no wind or current, we'd still slow down, because the water itself provides friction upon the hull of the boat, and that in itself acts as a brake.
We have all observed that the bigger the object, the longer it takes to slow down. Newton's second law of physics talks about how the amount of force required to move an object is inversely proportional to the mass of the object.
So, if a tug and barge were traveling down a narrow channel, and you stopped your boat 1,000 feet away, right in front of the tug and barge; and, if the master of the tug saw you immediately; and if the master of the tug immediately began to stop the tug and barge; you'd have less than one minute to move your vessel.
If you didn't move your vessel in less than 60 small seconds, the tug and barge would just run right over you. It would be impossible for the master of the tug to stop, based of the collective mass of both the vessel and the barge, in 1,000 feet.
The law of gross tonnage is un-relenting. It is a fact of life. Another fact of life is that you should not depend on the master of the tug or any other large vessel is able to see you, either visually or on radar.
https://americanboating.org/bigger_on_the_water.asp

See also, http://www.boatsmartexam.com/knowled...1-949x1024.jpg

Whew, what a rant!

I'm writing a textbook on collision avoidance, actually, with analyses of a number of actual collisions involving sailboats, and extensive interviews of commercial mariners. Do you mind if I quote these posts? I'll attribute them if you'll send me your real name by PM.


To the OP: Thread drift is a natural part of conversation online as it is in real life, but I agree with you that this is way over the top. Getting back to your question -- did you get the info you need?

My advice is that first and foremost, you need AIS overlaid on your plotter at the helm, even if the plotter display is small. The reason for that is that most day to day situations do not require deep analysis -- you just need quick info on "what that guy over there" is doing. If your helm plotter screen is at least 8" and at least SVGA resolution, then it will be fairly useful even for somewhat more complex situations, but you will want the overlay even on a simple 7" plotter.

I recommend the overlay on the plotter above a separate AIS display for several reasons -- much easier to orient yourself and relate the targets to what you see with your eyes; you notice new targets much more readily since you only have to look at one screen. That's my opinion -- others do well with separate displays -- you will have to make up your own mind.

For when you need a more detailed look at a more complicated situation, your idea of doing it on a tablet is good, in my opinion. As far as I know, all modern tablet plotter programs will display AIS data overlaid on the chart. I have personally used INavX and the OpenCPN Android version. INavX works great for AIS (it's a bit simple for my tastes for a plotter); OpenCPN is not really very good on tablet in my opinion -- the interface isn't really adapted to touch screen, the fonts are too small, etc.

Remember that tablets are consumer electronics and not daylight visible and can be killed instantly by a splash of seawater. This does not eliminate their usability in the cockpit, but does impose certain limits. If you are not single handed, then I would suggest doing your hardest collision avoidance at the nav table while someone else helms and keeps a lookout. At the nav table, there is simply nothing comparable to OpenCPN for AIS. O will graphically display the relative positions of your vessel and the target at CPA, which is incredibly useful as you try to work out a maneuver, because you see immediately which way you are crossing, rather than having to wait to see which way the bearing is going. I believe Vesper also does this -- if so, it's a big point in Vesper's favor.

As to how to hook it all up --

If you are looking for plotters, you can choose any one you like, as they all do pretty much the same thing these days. I think we were giving you advice in another thread about how 0183 and N2K can be made to work together, so I won't go back through that here. But an inexpensive AIS transponder black box is all you need -- just hook it up using N2K, even if it's the only N2K device you have. N2K is that easy.

One little point -- there is a new Class "B" protocol on the way which solves many of the problems of the existing system. It's called "SOTDMA", and you can read something about it here: Panbo: The Marine Electronics Hub: SOTDMA Class B AIS, the "new" middle way?.

Class B SOTDMA transmits at 5 watts instead of 2 watts, and transmits reports far more often (at the same rate as Class "A" sets), so will give other vessels are a much better idea of where you are. One big drawback of Class B is that it reports only once in 30 seconds, and because of the way the time slots are organized, many reports don't get through. So the receivers on other vessels may not know about a change in course or speed until minutes after you have executed it, and this can be dangerous.

I don't know if SOTDMA sets are available in the U.S. yet or not, but if they are -- I highly recommend you get one.

As to connecting to a tablet -- if your plotters are Navico (B&G, Simrad) then you can use GoFree, which works seamlessly with INavX and other plotter programs. New Raymarine and Furuno plotters have wifi built in I believe, and will stream the data you need, but you will have to check on that.

Otherwise, you can use one of the various wifi routers which will stream 0183 data. Here's a Swedish one: WiFi NMEA2000/0183/Seatalk Router

Just be very sure -- note well! That you are getting the data in 0183 over wifi, because neither INavX nor OpenCPN nor any other plotter program I know understands N2K, which is not an open protocol. AIS data (and any other data you want on your tablet) will need to get into 0183 format one way or another -- either you connect the 0183 output from the AIS black box to the router, or you buy a router which can translate N2K to 0183 (I believe the VYacht one will do it). Do NOT be tempted to use the 0183 output of the plotter, because for some reason these translate everything EXCEPT AIS data.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[Dockhead]

By the way, to add to the above -

If you are able to do any work at the nav table (i.e. you're not single handing all the time), you can set up an excellent fixed mounted system for very little money:

Mini fanless Atom quad-core computer -- $120

1080p monitor of whatever size fits -- $80 -$150

N2K to USB adapter with 0183 conversion $190 (but you probably won't need it once you've set up some way to get data onto your tablet)

Mini wireless keyboard/trackpad $20

Some marine tinned wireless and connectors, maybe a bus bar, breaker, fuse, etc.


OpenCPN. -- Free

NOAA raster and vector charts with continuous updated -- Free


And you have the best AIS display in the business -- really as good as what you will find on the average ship -- and an excellent chart plotting system

[Jerry Woodward]

Wow Dockhead, thanks for the detailed and useful suggestions. In the meantime, I have diagrammed the system I am thinking about. Nothing like putting things down on paper (or digital paper) to force one to really think about how things will work. I have attached my current plan (subject to change of course). I believe it incorporates many of the suggestions you and others have made. As I said initially, I need/want to add a masthead wind sensor and AIS. After listening to everyone's comments, I agree that I should probably have a good display at the helm also. I like the features of the Zeuss 2 and that would also allow me to add 3g or 4g radar later. Finally, I would install an N2K backbone, but try to keep my 0183 autopilot and tridata.

So, putting this all together, I would buy an N2K wind sensor, either Maretron WSO 100 or mechanical (WSO gets mixed reviews, so I wil continue to do research here). Run a N2K backbone down the mast and connect to a Vesper XB 8000, and a Zeus-2 9" at the helm. This would give me a great chartplotter with AIS overlay,wind speed/direction and any other N2K data at the helm. I would then hook the Zeus 2 to the ST4000 autopilot through 0183 inputs and outputs and hopefully, they would play nice with each other and I could steer by wind angle. The Vesper also has an 0183 input so I might be able to connect the tridata and get speed and depth onto the N2K network. The Vesper would also transmit data to wifi and with the watchmate apps on iPAD and phones, I could have all the Vesper AIS capability in the salon or in a berth to monitor anchor dragging, etc. The external alarm should allow the anchor alarm or proximity alarm to work even if the phone or ipad is shut off. So this would give me a pretty nice system for about $2,000, I think.